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Thread: [Guide] The Raiding Inquisitor v1.4

  1. #151
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    Hey, I just started playing (sort of. I played a mage in beta but then RL got in the way and I just came back. Week and a half back in the game and I'm a level 41 Inquis ) and I'm a rather experienced spreadsheet maker. I'd be interested in modelling these dps numbers on a spreadsheet (and possibly including a section for gear choices) if you guys would be interested. Things I would specifically need to know (since I'm kinda ignorant on this game's spell mechanics) are basic crit modifier (I think it's 150%), whether the crit bonuses from Inq/Sent/Sham are multiplicative or additive, exactly what talents modify which abilities and if there are any oddities which they leave out, whether casts in this game use a 1 or 2 roll system, the sp coefficients of our spells, and the amount of impact focus has on different boss fights (I think it's different based on different tiers of raiding?). I did a bunch of google searching but couldn't find most of these answers and thought since I'd be doing this to help Inquisitors, I may as well post in the Inq thread.
    Thanks,

    -Ryo

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Invertigo View Post
    Hey, I just started playing (sort of. I played a mage in beta but then RL got in the way and I just came back. Week and a half back in the game and I'm a level 41 Inquis ) and I'm a rather experienced spreadsheet maker. I'd be interested in modelling these dps numbers on a spreadsheet (and possibly including a section for gear choices) if you guys would be interested. Things I would specifically need to know (since I'm kinda ignorant on this game's spell mechanics) are basic crit modifier (I think it's 150%), whether the crit bonuses from Inq/Sent/Sham are multiplicative or additive, exactly what talents modify which abilities and if there are any oddities which they leave out, whether casts in this game use a 1 or 2 roll system, the sp coefficients of our spells, and the amount of impact focus has on different boss fights (I think it's different based on different tiers of raiding?). I did a bunch of google searching but couldn't find most of these answers and thought since I'd be doing this to help Inquisitors, I may as well post in the Inq thread.
    Thanks,

    -Ryo
    No offense, but anyone can put numbers into a spreadsheet, i'll admit modeling takes a tiny bit more know-how, but the real toughy is actually doing everything you asked above. That requires a lot of work, and I've only just begun to do it myself.

    To answer a few of your questions though:

    Basic crit mod is 150%.
    The crit bonuses are additive, NOT multiplicative.
    I want to say it uses a 1 roll system, though don't quote me for sure.
    SH and Vex SP coefficients are both effected by the 36th root point. Though the coefficient isn't effected, the damage is by our talent Mental Resilience.
    Focus cap is different for different tiers of raids. Raid 1 is 210-220 (I say 210 because I've done extensive testing and this is the magic number to not miss). Raid 2 is 310-320. It has a HUGE impact on our damage.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sokanon View Post
    No offense, but anyone can put numbers into a spreadsheet, i'll admit modeling takes a tiny bit more know-how, but the real toughy is actually doing everything you asked above. That requires a lot of work, and I've only just begun to do it myself.

    To answer a few of your questions though:

    Basic crit mod is 150%.
    The crit bonuses are additive, NOT multiplicative.
    I want to say it uses a 1 roll system, though don't quote me for sure.
    SH and Vex SP coefficients are both effected by the 36th root point. Though the coefficient isn't effected, the damage is by our talent Mental Resilience.
    Focus cap is different for different tiers of raids. Raid 1 is 210-220 (I say 210 because I've done extensive testing and this is the magic number to not miss). Raid 2 is 310-320. It has a HUGE impact on our damage.
    Agreed. Anyone can put numbers into a spreadsheet. Designing a spreadsheet that allows you to implement your spec, rotation, and gear (with enchantments and such), however, is something very few people can do. And yes, I agree entirely that you're doing a bit of the hard part. I have no talent with parses and such and honestly have no idea how to do them. By the time I got interested in modelling dps with spreadsheets, WOW had already finished most of its actual parsing and was down to simple theorycraft from there.

    I'll look up what I can find on stuff like focus and all that, but so far I've had no luck in finding out what causes spell coefficients. I'd imagine it has something to do with cast time, and I think you mentioned in one of your posts that BOJ loses in its coefficient when you spec it to cast faster. Anyway, I'm willing to work with you guys if you're willing to work with me. All I'm sayin

    Also, sorry I wasn't specific about my focus question. I meant was there a set "resist rate" and how much does focus affect it for each different tier?
    Last edited by Phoenix Invertigo; 08-22-2011 at 09:05 PM.

  4. #154
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    BoJ's spell coefficient was changed in 1.4, haven't checked to see what it is now or how the talent affects it, but its definitely different from before. In 1.3, as far as I could determine, the base SP coefficients (untalented) for BoJ, BoD, Vex, and SH were all the same - exactly as stated in the SP tooltip. Inquisitor and cabalist are the two easiest souls to model.

    As for focus, I don't think anyone has hard numbers. But its pretty clear that you want to be as close to cap as possible, its a major dps loss to miss. There's really no sense in modeling it. If you're below the cap focus > all else.

    edit - and I should add, the tooltip says SP adds x per second. If a spell has a 1.5 second cast time, multiply that by 1.5, if its 3 seconds, multiply by 3.
    Last edited by Valdis43; 08-23-2011 at 03:48 AM.

  5. #155
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    Easy way to bear out how much of an effect spell power has it to go to the dummy, remove your gear, and cast a given spell repeatedly.

    Then add a piece, repeat. Etc. etc. until you have your full set of dps gear on.

    Then plot spellpower from your baseline incremented by gear vs. average non-crit damage.

    In an ideal world the slope should be linear and equal to the ratio of damage increase per spellpower point. If it is not linear a curve should be able to be fit to it.

  6. #156
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    Thanks guys. I'm busy as hell tonight, but I'll start on it tomorrow. I didn't wanna trust the tooltip because tooltips lie their ***** off, but if you guys have done testing on it, I'll work with it that way. It'll be a good chance to see what all got changed with Excel 10 anyway, since I was using 3 and 7 before it. I'm actually worried they took out my dropdown lists, which would be a major inconvenience for the spec page, but could be worked around (albeit not as easymode as it would've been before). Again, thanks, and I'll be working on it over the next week or so.

  7. #157
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    If I remember correctly the equations are thus:

    Spell damage: (random (min damage, max damage) + SP * spell-specific coefficient) * (1 + damage modifiers)
    crit spell damage: (max damage + SP * spell-specific coefficient) * (1 + damage modifiers) * (1.5 + crit modifiers)

    Weapon-attack damage: (random (min damage, max damage) + AP * attack-specific coefficient + weapon-dps) * (1 + damage modifiers)
    Weapon-attack damage: (max damage + AP * attack-specific coefficient + weapon-dps) * (1 + damage modifiers) * (1.5 + crit modifiers)

    I'm less sure about the weapon-attack equation. There might be another attack-specific coefficient multipled with weapon-dps (but afaik weapon-attack skills use weapon-dps and NOT random (min weapon damage, max weapon damage).

    Min damage, Max damage are those listed on the tooltip of the spell.

    The attack/spell coefficient can be figured out by working backwards in the formula and comparing it to in-game results. It would be best to work from either a crit or a min/max damage hit since you know exactly which tooltip number was chosen by the random roll in that case. This would be 'parsing' you'd have to do (technically you can do it w/o a parser - make sure nobody else is on the dummy and then attack it til you see a crit and record the damage that flashed on screen).

    Damage modifiers are any skills that add + x% damage to the ability (i.e. +10% death damage, +5% to instant spells). Crit modifiers is the sum of your talent points in the inq/sent/shaman crit modifers. 1.5 is the basic 150% damage that a crit does. So if you have 5 points in the inq and sent crit multiples you do 1.5+0.2+0.2 = 1.9x the maximum damage of a non-crit when you crit.

    There appears to be a slight rounding error so my in-game testing didn't quite match the spread-sheet model I made for BoJ. The in-game values were within 2 points of the expected values, so either the rounding works differently than the standard round function, there's a rounding erorr someplace, or I didn't quite have the coeff correct (it was roughly 0.399x SP w/ the -0.5s cast talent, I believe).

    Focus is...I think 5 focus = 1% fewer resists (so 0.2*focus = % fewer resists). My suspicion is that you have a base 4-5% resist chance (hence why focus gear starts appearing in the mid-30s...so you can overcome the base chance). That 4-5% is where the "get 20-25 points overcap" thing comes from. The cap values for content are:
    T2 - 100 (+20% chance to miss)
    R1 - 200 (+40%)
    R2 - 300 (+60%)

    So I'd expect someone w/ 0 focus to hit 75% of the time in T2 content (i.e. 20% miss rate + 5% base miss rate). I don't think my experience in HK quite bore this out so it may not be correct. Of course the parse gets muddle by hits that "can't" miss (for instance if SH lands then sanction will have a 100% hit rate). I believe I've been told that the boss dummies in Meridian / Sanctum are R1 level (i.e. 220% hit required). That should be easy to test.

    The crit % chance can be figured out from the tooltip (I forget offhand something like (crit value * 0.0325) = crit %). Remember that crit soft-caps at 45% (before buffs) and hard caps at 60% (or is it 65%?) before buffs. So the scaling value (0.0325) will drop off between those values.

    Then you could calculate the "average" damage done by a spell as:
    ave dmg: spell damage * (1- crit %/100) + crit-spell damage * crit % / 100

    Those are the equations used in game to the best of my knowledge (based on my simple tests and others more thorough tests).

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minerian View Post
    The crit % chance can be figured out from the tooltip (I forget offhand something like (crit value * 0.0325) = crit %). Remember that crit soft-caps at 45% (before buffs) and hard caps at 60% (or is it 65%?) before buffs. So the scaling value (0.0325) will drop off between those values.
    It's crit value * .0375 = crit %.

    So you were close

  9. #159
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    Those are some damn useful equations. Thank you ^_^

    Anyone already know how dots and/or channeled spells are ranked on coefficients? Is it 1.5 for the insta cast, or based on their duration? And (I know, I'm asking a lot, but why reinvent the wheel if it's already been done?) split spells like sanction heretic that have a damage and dot portion?

  10. #160
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    quick question on the BiS sheet, for a 2h(even a 1h/off) it looks like the SP runes are the best, but isn't SC a priority over SP. My SC is low 600s and SP just over 1000, which should I focus on for a 2h?

  11. #161
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    This isn't really the thread for this, but,

    Weapon-attack damage: (random (min damage, max damage) + AP * attack-specific coefficient + weapon-dps) * (1 + damage modifiers)
    Weapon-attack damage: (max damage + AP * attack-specific coefficient + weapon-dps) * (1 + damage modifiers) * (1.5 + crit modifiers)
    I was never able to get these kinds of equations to match my tests on the dummy. I was never even able to get any kind of linear relationship between AP and damage, no matter how I included weapon and ability damage. Best fit were always log equations, so I'm pretty sure we're missing something, and I don't think its armor, because that's simply a % damage reduction.

    Spell damage is much, much cleaner to model.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ootax View Post
    quick question on the BiS sheet, for a 2h(even a 1h/off) it looks like the SP runes are the best, but isn't SC a priority over SP. My SC is low 600s and SP just over 1000, which should I focus on for a 2h?
    As stated, the BiS list are based upon the assumption you're at the appropriate crit value ratio (which I've upped to 55% raid buffed, but I think I might make it 65% raid buffed (45% from gear, 20% from raid buffs)). SP does scale better in the long run for us, but so does crit, and due to Corporal Punishment we need to crit as much as possible to maintain its uptime (15% life/death dmg bonus is a HUGE part of our DPS)

  13. #163
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    This is my current 51 point Inq... I went with 11 in just and 4 in sent to give a little extra healing when needed. This is meant to be a raid build as a range DPS/sup.

    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=00...kigtkqz.Vuzo.m

    Would i just be wasting space in a raid with this build by trying to do both DPS and Heal? Would it be better for my raid if I went the more standard 51 inq rest in cab?

    Thanks.
    I kill more players than anyone! Just ask the last raid that asked me to heal!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    I wanted to come out and say the following pretty definitively: There is no goal to make DPS clerics that DPS do less damage than other callings.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivengar View Post
    This is my current 51 point Inq... I went with 11 in just and 4 in sent to give a little extra healing when needed. This is meant to be a raid build as a range DPS/sup.

    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=00...kigtkqz.Vuzo.m

    Would i just be wasting space in a raid with this build by trying to do both DPS and Heal? Would it be better for my raid if I went the more standard 51 inq rest in cab?

    Thanks.
    Inquisicars are often the prefered raid healers. My experience has been you play it like an Inq most of the time and spam DoL after big AEs. You might occasionally toss out another heal. You do most of the dps as an inq (minus about 200 dps) but 1-2 inq'cars will cover pretty much all of the AE damage.

    Note: Sok does have a build he calls "The Offhealer" in the original post which is an inquisicar. He goes deeped into just/sent and less into inq. I would suggest a build closer to his than to yours (I run 40 inq / 16 just / 10 sent personally), but 11 justi is pretty much the agreed upon minimum.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivengar View Post
    This is my current 51 point Inq... I went with 11 in just and 4 in sent to give a little extra healing when needed. This is meant to be a raid build as a range DPS/sup.

    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=00...kigtkqz.Vuzo.m

    Would i just be wasting space in a raid with this build by trying to do both DPS and Heal? Would it be better for my raid if I went the more standard 51 inq rest in cab?

    Thanks.
    The standard Icar build is 45 Inq/11 Just/10 sent, there are about a billion variations of the Icar specs it depends if you want more dps, or more healing flavor. 51 Icar is a lil bit meh, but doable, you are lacking the full sp bonus from sent as well at 20% crit damage from sent. (If dps is more your taste)

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