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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Rift pvp 2020

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    Plane Touched AVGVSTVS's Avatar
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    Shield of Telara Dizbo's Avatar
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    Too funny.. I get your drift about ranged but...

    Hey, melee can dominate too....
    Spoiler!

    Maybe bot warfare?
    Spoiler!

    2020 should be interesting!
    Last edited by Dizbo; 11-28-2019 at 11:24 PM.

  3. #3
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    Pretty funny. I was in a wf the other day and one solitary warrior was trying to melee with 19 other players (most good ones) all playing the 30-35 meter back and forth ranged game. I felt bad for them.

    Although, most warriors can blow you up in short order. The ranged specs just suck for them.

    Imo, the game should revert to the slower pace it once was, which would help out melee in the fact that people cant turn and insta blow you up while your getting into position to engage, and some melee has better utility, but in todays fast paced environment utility rarely sticks. Id start there because you cant really do much to help melee it would be too powerful. Lower all ranged and one healed melee would destroy everything. Sure some ranged souls definitely need lowered, but Id fix dps overall first as a whole, then go from there. Would also help to introduce some unused souls that cant compete in this super fast paced environment. So many abilities rely on longer combat time frames. Just look at a threshers maw build-no point for hawks wrath even if overall it ticks more damage your better off repeating two buttons to blow them up with threshers maw. Everything else is just macroed in.
    Last edited by Wrastion; 12-01-2019 at 05:31 PM.

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    Plane Touched AVGVSTVS's Avatar
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    The constant cycle of running out of ppls ranged to drink is really ****ing tedius. you run past 2 ppl your whole health bar is gone then you gotta go and change your whole entire position to go and drink its complete ****.
    Going through a ton of drinks per weeks.
    Last edited by AVGVSTVS; 12-04-2019 at 04:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AVGVSTVS View Post
    The constant cycle of running out of ppls ranged to drink is really ****ing tedius. you run past 2 ppl your whole health bar is gone then you gotta go and change your whole entire position to go and drink its complete ****.
    Going through a ton of drinks per weeks.

    Use basic food + pots and vials and stones and reli, and other things that can boost survival with the class. TTK is not as bad as it was. You wouldn't be getting double-teamed if you have a recon vial or stayed with your teammates. Problem is that players who use everything that Rift offers that give them an advantage in PvP are being put with a lot of players who don't. The problem is actually why those people won't adapt to using those items.. If they made all consumable not work in PvP it probably would do more than any sort of balance change to correct balance since. You will always be stuck with those comp[lainers who don't want to use the stuff available to them.

    If you set yourself up to be limited.. Only play paragon (barely effectively with no stuns, disables pulls etc) and don't use consumables or skills to increase TTK for example that is on you. You set yourself up to be limited or handicapped and expect everyone else to follow the same action as you. That really is not right. Having consumables like pots etc.. available can make a warrior go 1v1 and win or 1v2 and even 3 sometimes because a lot of players don't use consumables/upgrade fragments. This is also why some people are not worth healing or healing feels too weak at times. There are people who rather have that partial control over their own survival rather than relying on a random 1 out of 50 players to switch to heals in a low pop warfront. Gives players other things to think about while spamming that one or 2 buttons.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 12-11-2019 at 08:09 PM.

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    Range has always been the preferred way to PvP by the majority. It was only during the exclusive pocket healing days with powerful healing like pre changed Defi and Phys in SL, and then WC and FK in NT where melee seemed to be strong. There is certainly a correlation between strong pocket healing and strength of melee in PvP. IN my opinion it had too many faulty byproducts. Throughout history, Trion tried many options and most did not work. I think the current option can be fixed easier than other options.

    Yes, PvP feels dead but I don't attribute it totally to class balance. From Discord I have heard a lot of x player is on all day so I don't queue PvP.. either a good player or a severely bad player throwing matches and doing nothing for the team. This seems to be the main cause of why PvP is dead. When population was much bigger and we had 3-5 matches going at once there was an option for players to leave warfronts with soul recall and queue different map but its not possible anymore and the population is low so you will likely get stuck on the team with the loser or the team against the OP healer/s. In my opinion, the only way to handle this is an internal blacklist that would need to be refresh every month. Where the dev says you are way too good so you need a time out or you are way too bad so you need a time out. Or you are way too good so you need to be place with the bad player. And that doesn't really seem doable without eventually being bias. You could use APM + a mix of other sensors like damage done/healing done matched against games won and loss but it would require complex programming to automate the list. This was sort of attempted with ELO matchmaking but wasn't refined enough.

    When I interpret the data I have available it seems like some classes melee does work well in PvP though. It may not be all scenarios but a good amount of maps do allow melee to function well and also when warfronts have smaller team sizes like 5v5 melee works much better than in 15v15.

    So why do some classes melee work better than others? We have to deconstruct those class variables that make their melee favorable. So far, I find what makes melee viable is being able to stealth in combat, have passive run speed much higher than the range, have access to teleports/charges on a low CD, have access to pulls, and the ability to do limited range damage in melee spec. Also, a mix of powerful abilities that can be cast at the range. Like a melee build-up to strong range burst. Some other things to consider are stacking damage into a gcd with OGCD ability and/or passive damage. And most definitely immunity to pulls and knockbacks. A decent mix of those concepts seems to make melee much more viable.

    Some classes melee has more of these options than others. For instance, cleric doesn't have much of these options for its melee. A teleport with runeshaper/cab and good speed but missing the other half that keeps them stuck to the target. Primalist is on an island on its own and would need some marginalizing since it can change its melee to ranged damage with a legendary and that is why it would be very difficult to make melee for this class a choice for players. The only thing is that primalist does have a non thresher maw range burst. So ideally you will need to look into nerfing that legendary and buffing its playability from melee while making the pure range fury blast spec their range option. Basically, it really comes down to buffing cleric and primalist melee playability in PvP so other options are available to them. Then you will see a good mix of players opting to play melee for those classes as you see with the other classes.

    Somethings like Perseverance is better suited for a melee soul rather than a range. Things like Dark Passage and Rune of Return feel better if they were switched to opposite souls. You basically want to make the range options less viable at getting out of a tough situation while giving melee better options at doing it. The same thing with reaver stealth.. it would be better if it was in warlord or paragon and primalist passive speed increase from zephyr would be better in a pure melee primalist spec like a full predator. The predators stealth should drop aggro like other stealth so it's not as useless in combat. They would have to make sure though that those utilities are not able to be stacked with other souls so it can only affect the melee soul.

    If I were to rank why melee doesn't work for you in PvP and why PvP is dying:
    1) player matching.
    2) Some classes melee not having enough favorable traits for melee. Some classes range having too many favorable traits that seem to be better off in melee.
    3) a complex consumable and gearing system with little to no explanation.
    4) map design.
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 12-17-2019 at 02:01 AM.

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    stand back, dot, run away, run in dot, bursttttttttttta, dot run away, or just get a pocket healer and go smash like hulk, either way is fun at times

  8.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #8
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    Hey! I marked down feedback from this thread. I got (basically):
    - Ranged is overpowered compared to Melee thus making Warfronts just a snowball battle and the Melee take the brunt of it all
    - Not a lot of players do matchmaking for it
    - The consumable and gear system is too complex with little to no explanation
    - The map designs seemed flawed or favor a group of people (??? I would like a better explanation or what we can do to improve the map designs if possible)

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    Shield of Telara Dizbo's Avatar
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    Default re: Ranged

    Quote Originally Posted by Taerentym View Post
    Hey! I marked down feedback from this thread. I got (basically):
    - Ranged is overpowered compared to Melee thus making Warfronts just a snowball battle and the Melee take the brunt of it all
    ----
    Dear Taerentym:
    For consideration regarding "Ranged" portion of the above:
    1. Most ranged damage is generated from the Mage's Warlock dots
    2. The dots cause players to quickly "retreat and drink/eat" to attempt to survive them
    3. Melee benefits from team healers.
    4. Most matches have one or no healers - who can cleanse the dots
    TDLR - On next pvp balance pass, please make healing output viable [particularly cleric] to bring some balance/counters to the current pvp meta and increase population of healing roles which is at an all time low. Thanks
    Last edited by Dizbo; 12-18-2019 at 12:15 PM.

  10.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #10
    Community Manager Taerentym's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dizbo View Post
    ----
    Dear Taerentym:
    For consideration regarding "Ranged" portion of the above:
    1. Most ranged damage is generated from the Mage's Warlock dots
    2. The dots cause players to quickly "retreat and drink/eat" to attempt to survive them
    3. Melee benefits from team healers.
    4. Most matches have one or no healers - who can cleanse the dots
    TDLR - On next pvp balance pass, please make healing output viable [particularly cleric] to bring some balance/counters to the current pvp meta and increase population of healing roles which is at an all time low. Thanks

    Added to the documentation. Thank you!

  11. #11
    Ascendant Challengere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taerentym View Post
    Added to the documentation. Thank you!
    note the cure for this same issue when it was Warrior Reaver doing it was to break the Reaver from which it never truly recovered, I would warn against breaking PvE specs in fixing said issue

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    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taerentym View Post
    - The map designs seemed flawed or favor a group of people (??? I would like a better explanation or what we can do to improve the map designs if possible)
    map mechanics and even the maps themselves have changed much over the duration of the game, however, how the players play those maps has not always adjusted to those changes.

    passive player movement speed is now much faster

    match duration was decreased

    the points generated over time by objectives was increased

    (these two points together completely changed how Codex should be played, as under the old timers teams had time to get their act together, regroup, ect. now any kind of faffing about (which for many players is 100% of how they participate in pvp) throws the match.

    TTK has been moved up, down, sideways, in loops and smashed into walls with little regard to the previous points.

    new souls have been added without the long list of pvp specific tweaks that all the original souls have had added to them (Mystic Archer teleporting while carrying objectives, while literally every other soul with a teleport/sprint has those abilities blocked once an objective is picked up, is possibly the most egregious example). see also, Primalist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  13. #13
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    also add to the list:

    uncleansable primalist dot with exceptionally long duration that persist thru death (you respawn and the dot is still ticking on you)

    cleric ability with unlimited range that shoots thru walls (I've had clerics i've killed keep sniping at me from their spawn , keeping me from interacting with objectives in ghar station, or hitting me from their teams side flag in blighted antechamber, while i'm at my teams side flag)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Challengere View Post
    note the cure for this same issue when it was Warrior Reaver doing it was to break the Reaver from which it never truly recovered, I would warn against breaking PvE specs in fixing said issue
    Reaver like Tempest has been nerfed to the ground in pvp :

    - Tempest was just the perfect spec with interesting rotation in pve and pvp before they had Wavelenght burst pushing one button. Charged pulse has been nerf to the ground in pvp so the nerf should be looked at (not a complete un nerf, just a little boost to charge pulse damage, or you will see only warrior spamm a button at range).

    - Reaver : for what i know Viral stream and dots has been nerfed to the ground. If you compare a MM Fireshot or a Inqui Agressive inquisition to a Reaver Viiral stream in pvp you will laugh hard. Same for dots : compare inqui or warlock dots to reaver'ones (i know cleric only have inqui in pvp, i know defiler is bad, druid can't be played, etc etc, it's just to compare).
    Shadow Warp (reaver's teleport) was purging dots/poisons before if i remember well : why not giving this ability back ? it would help against dots specs and assassins (reaver is clearly not a soul those other classes fear)

    Just my 2 cents, warrior has of course already other playable souls (wc, rb, para, wl) compared to cleric.
    Last edited by sylaen; 12-18-2019 at 03:13 PM.

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    Ascendant Challengere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylaen View Post
    Reaver like Tempest has been nerfed to the ground in pvp :

    - Tempest was just the perfect spec with interesting rotation in pve and pvp before they had Wavelenght burst pushing one button. Charged pulse has been nerf to the ground in pvp so the nerf should be looked at (not a complete un nerf, just a little boost to charge pulse damage, or you will see only warrior spamm a button at range).

    - Reaver : for what i know Viral stream and dots has been nerfed to the ground. If you compare a MM Fireshot or a Inqui Agressive inquisition to a Reaver Viiral stream in pvp you will laugh hard. Same for dots : compare inqui or warlock dots to reaver'ones (i know cleric only have inqui in pvp, i know defiler is bad, druid can't be played, etc etc, it's just to compare).
    Shadow Warp (reaver's teleport) was purging dots/poisons before if i remember well : why not giving this ability back ? it would help against dots specs and assassins (reaver is clearly not a soul those other classes fear)

    Just my 2 cents, warrior has of course already other playable souls (wc, rb, para, wl) compared to cleric.
    yeah and they made those changes by editting the PvE trees not by making a global mod to the PvP usage of the specs, it would be miraculous if they somehow took those PvE nerfs back and made them PvP specific so as to give us back Warrior ranged specs comparable to the current MM builds

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