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Thread: good thing we nerfed primalist healing

  1. #61
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    while bolstering does bring a lvl 65-69's damage up to something not quite useless, it doesnt give them the same survivability, damage reduction, and health pool as a lvl 70. they still go splat a lot faster

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    while bolstering does bring a lvl 65-69's damage up to something not quite useless, it doesnt give them the same survivability, damage reduction, and health pool as a lvl 70. they still go splat a lot faster
    Fresh 70s don't have much survival. It takes awhile to get to that level unless you already have stuff ready for you like reliquary etc. That is basically the only difference until you get through a lot of grind.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 10-31-2019 at 04:13 PM.

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    Im fooling with a SS shot so be a little forgiving while I try to edit and download some screenshots.

    This one shows high output during a whitefall as you can see nearly 6 million heals for a cleric, playing purifier/warden. As I stated before, warden is only good for matches where you have 10 + players on your team or your hps will drop and your better off going sent or puri sent. Most the heals are from purifier faiths freedom. HPS sat around 10k until the end when I was spot healing people.
    https://paste.pics/505d9136ed0a81f916887c649d2e3834

    The next one here shows how the puri/sent soul heals in a struggle of a wf where I die several times. I'm showing this as a more realistic wf where I'm not left alone at all. If you notice the warrior's total damage almost doubles my total heals, and I was focused by porting Rift Blades and some fairly veteran players. Still, dying just 4 times being marked and focused down, this shows the LARGE power gap between souls. While I don't want to see healers reach the numbers of ridiculous souls, they could use a slight boost while the ridiculously overpowered souls can definitely be knocked down quite a few notches. To point, if you balanced this wf out to make my output just = to the RB, I would have to have a ~90% increase to all of my abilities. Very few clerics even reach these total output numbers, which I'm pointing out that this isn't bad playing and I'm stating the output is lackluster (due to bad play).
    https://paste.pics/b52a819121bf944180aea4f10bb81110

    A decent match where the warrior was the opposite team's healer. The output was decent for getting focused sitting around 6k heals. The warrior was also focused, but never died. The warriors output is a fair shake ahead of mine, but what I really want someone to answer is if the warrior's shields are not being nerfed as all shields are supposed to be in pvp. If not, the actual warrior output would be extraordinarily much higher then my output. The warrior already has more built-in defense and is harder to kill. Anyone can weigh in on this question concerning shields because I've been questioning this for a while. Specifically, newer souls getting "forgotten" to have their abilities nerfed in pvp the same as all the old souls did.
    https://paste.pics/419f61eb3f43a7ee4de3e55c7d88bb04

    As sad as it is, because puri faith's freedom is usually around 60% + of ALL of a decent cleric's healing output, you can actually build a inq/purifier and kill people while doing most the healing. Normal heals are so lackluster JP is usually your 2nd most effective heal. You still die to the overpowered souls with low burst CD's, but can outlast quite a few other souls.
    https://paste.pics/1d304dd1300c128fdd139fc913c5b2b1
    Last edited by Wrastion; 11-08-2019 at 12:45 PM.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashmemory View Post
    Don't underestimate how much a well geared rogue can do.
    Here's some pics. Please let me know if you can figure out if this is normal or not.

    Lvl 69 all pve gear just regular stuff, topping the charts with average 8.6k dps.
    https://paste.pics/db019b11ff3d5f01a4ddec964ab7bd72

    Heres the combat log of him hitting me at lvl 69. His 58k coda crit on a full pvp geared player. His regular coda did 37k to me. It wasn't in just one wf either. You can also see his dps just shy of TripC, if you want to compare him to another overpowered soul/player. Remember, he's lvl 69. His dps was beating Nivlak's in many wf's, again, at lvl 69.
    https://paste.pics/3549f8f0a3bf80221074a5d857667ecb
    https://paste.pics/03c80e5e6b418204d6086179548c681d

    So unless bolstering makes your character more powerful then everything you can get at lvl 70, I don't know how to explain his numbers. IF bolstering is like this, then it should seriously be addressed. Game has so many things to fix on a basic level that anything could be true. I still can't hit full pvp geared players with all buffs like that, but maybe that's just me. Still, really high dps for a lvl 69.
    Last edited by Wrastion; 11-08-2019 at 03:47 PM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrastion View Post
    So unless bolstering makes your character more powerful then everything you can get at lvl 70.
    A perfectly boosted Coda from a highly geared level 70 will hit harder than 58K. The bolstering has a lot of problems but it is mostly the investment and RNG of planar fragments. You are counting on luck and thousands of games played to get what some lucky person or frequent winner got in considerably less time ..Literally someone can win 400-500 games and get a decent amount of good quality fragments, in some cases, enough to gear several toons, where someone can spend 1000s upon 1000s of games played and get worse than that lucky person did just for one toon. If the person has extraordinary luck and wins a lot he can be geared in a few months with better fragments than someone who spends 2 years+. Especially if they don't play as much. To many players that is a massive game design flaw and makes PVP not worth it.

    Another big problem is just the players themselves. You have players who have thrown away good fragments, don't know how to capitalize when they have good fragments, never using consumables, and a whole lot of other behaviors that influence the game. For example, a level 69 can hit for 58K taking advantage of all consumables etc. A decently geared level 70 without using consumables may hit for 61-63K+. A fairly geared with consumables may hit for 67K+. So someone who is bolstered and using all that is offered can definitely feel better than many level 70s or fresh 70s who don't use consumables unless those level 70s have stuff like a whole planar fragment set waiting for them from winning tons of games with other toons etc.

    Since damage reduction is high in PvP even though the difference can be as great as 20% for instance, you won't feel much of a difference when translated to DPS. It will be felt more in burst than anything else...

    Total healing done isn't the only factor to consider for PvP. There is damage reduction and links too...In my opinion, the cleric isn't in a good state compared to other classes. This is both in PvE and PvP.. but since you have a lot of "different" players who don't capitalize or utilize all that the game offers they can make a huge impact. Purifier, for instance, can bring sterilize.. very good vs. warlock users. That can take a warlock down from doing 13K damage on 3+ toons to something like 4k-5K if properly used or can easily ruin an inquisitor DPS from LSH+ dot specs. They can also do other things with synergy like damage reduction from sent/defi etc. Mage, Primalist and Warrior healers seem better in design.. but with that heal and some abilities, puri isn't so bad. They are underestimated because most people just consider total healing done when they offer other ways to increase TTK..
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 11-11-2019 at 11:44 AM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrastion View Post
    Here's some pics. Please let me know if you can figure out if this is normal or not.

    Lvl 69 all pve gear just regular stuff, topping the charts with average 8.6k dps.
    https://paste.pics/db019b11ff3d5f01a4ddec964ab7bd72

    Heres the combat log of him hitting me at lvl 69. His 58k coda crit on a full pvp geared player. His regular coda did 37k to me. It wasn't in just one wf either. You can also see his dps just shy of TripC, if you want to compare him to another overpowered soul/player. Remember, he's lvl 69. His dps was beating Nivlak's in many wf's, again, at lvl 69.
    https://paste.pics/3549f8f0a3bf80221074a5d857667ecb
    https://paste.pics/03c80e5e6b418204d6086179548c681d

    So unless bolstering makes your character more powerful then everything you can get at lvl 70, I don't know how to explain his numbers. IF bolstering is like this, then it should seriously be addressed. Game has so many things to fix on a basic level that anything could be true. I still can't hit full pvp geared players with all buffs like that, but maybe that's just me. Still, really high dps for a lvl 69.
    -------
    Sorry I cannot offer any insight as to how Plusen's toons hit so hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flashmemory View Post
    <snip>
    Total healing done isn't the only factor to consider for PvP. There is damage reduction and links too...In my opinion cleric isn't in a good state compared to other classes. This is both in PvE and PvP.. but since you have a lot of "different" players who don't capitalize or utilize all that the game offers they can make a huge impact. Purifier for instance can bring sterilize.. very good vs. warlock users. That can take a warlock down from doing 13K damage on 3+ toons to something like 4k-5K if properly used or can easily ruin an inquisitor dps from LSH+ dot specs. They can also do other things with synergy like damage reduction from sent/defi etc. Mage, Primalist and Warrior healers seem better in design.. but with that heal and some abilities, puri isn't so bad. They are underestimated becasuse most people just consider total healing done when they offer other ways to increase TTK..
    --------------
    I like the idea of playing a cleanse bot in dot heavy wf's .. but once they figure that out.. you're dead garbage.

  7. #67
    Rift Chaser Sails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrastion View Post
    Here's some pics. Please let me know if you can figure out if this is normal or not.

    Lvl 69 all pve gear just regular stuff, topping the charts with average 8.6k dps.
    https://paste.pics/db019b11ff3d5f01a4ddec964ab7bd72

    Heres the combat log of him hitting me at lvl 69. His 58k coda crit on a full pvp geared player. His regular coda did 37k to me. It wasn't in just one wf either. You can also see his dps just shy of TripC, if you want to compare him to another overpowered soul/player. Remember, he's lvl 69. His dps was beating Nivlak's in many wf's, again, at lvl 69.
    https://paste.pics/3549f8f0a3bf80221074a5d857667ecb
    https://paste.pics/03c80e5e6b418204d6086179548c681d

    So unless bolstering makes your character more powerful then everything you can get at lvl 70, I don't know how to explain his numbers. IF bolstering is like this, then it should seriously be addressed. Game has so many things to fix on a basic level that anything could be true. I still can't hit full pvp geared players with all buffs like that, but maybe that's just me. Still, really high dps for a lvl 69.


    I had a long post about how devs aren't on the job about gear and output. This might actually be true. But I decided to delete b/c I'd like to gain a little more info. To me, this is a little bizarre. During this time, when this player was laying waste to toons all over maps, I didn't know they were pre-70 in green gear. I've seen really good pre-70s but not quite this good. So my curiosity now is about how bolstering works.
    Last edited by Sails; 11-12-2019 at 08:18 AM.
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashmemory View Post
    A perfectly boosted Coda from a highly geared level 70 will hit harder than 58K. The bolstering has a lot of problems but it is mostly the investment and RNG of planar fragments. You are counting on luck and thousands of games played to get what some lucky person or frequent winner got in considerably less time ..Literally someone can win 400-500 games and get a decent amount of good quality fragments, in some cases, enough to gear several toons, where someone can spend 1000s upon 1000s of games played and get worse than that lucky person did just for one toon. If the person has extraordinary luck and wins a lot he can be geared in a few months with better fragments than someone who spends 2 years+. Especially if they don't play as much. To many players that is a massive game design flaw and makes PVP not worth it.
    It'd be nice if frags could be inspected. I mean, its announced anyway on shards when a frag becomes a marvelous w/e. I think, with stats attached. This aside, I could believe your point about frags mostly contributing, if there is a such thing as level 1 frags. Speaking form my own experience, I have really good fully infused L2 and L3 sets and my numbers w/ consumables, on a different class are no where near this. Just how much of a part or percent do frags play? Can they negate the requirement for gear at all?
    Last edited by Sails; 11-12-2019 at 12:58 PM.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sails View Post
    It'd be nice if frags could be inspected. I mean, its announced anyway on shards when a frag becomes a marvelous w/e. I think, with stats attached. This aside, I could believe your point about frags mostly contributing, if there is a such thing as level 1 frags. Speaking form my own experience, I have really good fully infused L2 and L3 sets and my numbers w/ consumables, on a different class are no where near this. Just how much of a part or percent do frags play? Can they negate the requirement for gear at all?
    Primalist and Warrior have way easier set up to burst than this and do perform higher burst. This spec is not as easy to play as the others to maximize damage since you are required to have max stacks of emptiness, all your CD's ready, and even go out of combat to stealth and come back in with dark malady to maximize at least. I have seen 72K+ hits with it but it is rare. And not from any warfront boost but just regular rogues with consumables and decent fragments. Primalist and warrior can burst 100K+ in what seems like 2-3secs or near-instant with practically no set up. CoW has a travel time as well so it doesn't even feel anywhere as instant as primalist FOTM specs.. Not just thresher maw btw.. or RB and Para specs. Primalist and warrior are bigger outliers than rogue when they have good fragments and high Phys Crit because of ease of use and burst frequency. If you don't boost your CoW properly you average crit will be less than half your max crit... like 25K-35K. Also, you have to consider that sometimes people play bard or even warrior BM and for some time there was an archon running around in PvP when these guys started talking about insane damage. This can boost damage even more on these specs so hard to tell really if they were boosted even more than usual at sub 70 but I know even some rogue with 0 outside support buff or even warfront buffs can get at least 68K+ with CoW. 58K vs 68K may not seem like a lot in terms of actual difference but it is when you consider how damage is greatly reduced in PvP. It is fresh 70s and new players that struggle the most..and absolutely terrible in game explanations about how things work for PvP. They need to simplify the whole gearing, consumable and outside buffing system so that it is more organized. We have rogues who don't even use cleanse soul for instance.. and won't even know how good it is for many many years. Some abilities are mixed in with can't use in PvP..There should be a better indentifier for abilities that can be used in PvP.. Like maybe make their boarders a different color.
    If you take your time to heal in warfronts you will see how ignorant or bad players are in pvp.. which is why even healers like puri and even a bard/phys can be reason to win warfronts.. Same with hybrid tank specs where players just focus the tank and waste all their burst on them and have nothing left to kill the other teams dps who just rips them up with annihilation.. happened a few times in this black garden warfront actually.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 11-12-2019 at 01:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dizbo View Post
    I like the idea of playing a cleanse bot in dot heavy wf's .. but once they figure that out.. you're dead garbage.
    You can also bring an AE cleanse that cleanses a second time with oracle or warden.. plus steralize.The game provides way better hard counters to caster base classes than to martial classes.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 11-12-2019 at 02:03 PM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedynn View Post
    Primalist and Warrior have way easier set up to burst than this and do perform higher burst. This spec is not as easy to play as the others to maximize damage since you are required to have max stacks of emptiness, all your CD's ready, and even go out of combat to stealth and come back in with dark malady to maximize at least. I have seen 72K+ hits with it but it is rare. And not from any warfront boost but just regular rogues with consumables and decent fragments. Primalist and warrior can burst 100K+ in what seems like 2-3secs or near-instant with practically no set up. CoW has a travel time as well so it doesn't even feel anywhere as instant as primalist FOTM specs.. Not just thresher maw btw.. or RB and Para specs. Primalist and warrior are bigger outliers than rogue when they have good fragments and high Phys Crit because of ease of use and burst frequency. If you don't boost your CoW properly you average crit will be less than half your max crit... like 25K-35K. Also, you have to consider that sometimes people play bard or even warrior BM and for some time there was an archon running around in PvP when these guys started talking about insane damage. This can boost damage even more on these specs so hard to tell really if they were boosted even more than usual at sub 70 but I know even some rogue with 0 outside support buff or even warfront buffs can get at least 68K+ with CoW. 58K vs 68K may not seem like a lot in terms of actual difference but it is when you consider how damage is greatly reduced in PvP. It is fresh 70s and new players that struggle the most..and absolutely terrible in game explanations about how things work for PvP. They need to simplify the whole gearing, consumable and outside buffing system so that it is more organized. We have rogues who don't even use cleanse soul for instance.. and won't even know how good it is for many many years. Some abilities are mixed in with can't use in PvP..There should be a better indentifier for abilities that can be used in PvP.. Like maybe make their boarders a different color.
    If you take your time to heal in warfronts you will see how ignorant or bad players are in pvp.. which is why even healers like puri and even a bard/phys can be reason to win warfronts.. Same with hybrid tank specs where players just focus the tank and waste all their burst on them and have nothing left to kill the other teams dps who just rips them up with annihilation.. happened a few times in this black garden warfront actually.
    It seems you're quite versed in all this. Which I wouldn't even know where to start from what's up there. I was just trying to understand how frags impact output. And the percentage they play at boosting performance, for fully geared players. But no worries, thanks for what you tried to explain.
    Last edited by Sails; 11-12-2019 at 04:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sails View Post
    It seems you're quite versed in all this. Which I wouldn't even know where to start from what's up there. I was just trying to understand how frags impact output. And the percentage they play at boosting performance, for fully geared players. But no worries, thanks for what you tried to explain.
    PvE gear still offers some benefit over some slot PvP gear. If you have the level 70 rune for shoulders the best shoulders would be the level 70 PvP shoulders but if you don't then a rune and orb for level 65 PvE relic or even the epic shoulder would be second best in the slot for PvP for damage. Not by much but every bit of crit chance you get counts in PvP. When you go into a warfront the crit chance can be different depending on how you slot your gear and what spec you use. Amulet from level 65 pve with rune and orb. Cape as well can add more crit chance AP/SP.

    What you want to aim for is fragments with tier 1-4 with Crit Power. Like Tier 2 fire, tier 3 water and tier 4 air with CP primary and in some cases earth and life depending on the class. For secondaries, you will want your main stats and crit chance. For instance, for a martial class, a T2 WAR fire fragment with CP primary stat and secondary stat of Dex, Str, Crit Chance, and either life or endurance would be best in slot. I would rate crit chance secondary as more important than secondary stats like dex/str in some specs and roles than in others. Just think about it. Having high crit power and low crit chance won't allow you to capitalize on the crit power. You have to look at your stats in warfronts as well if you mix gear to get a better understanding of what your stats are. Like if you use level 15 pve fragments you will see a significant loss in crit power and crit chance compared to using even level 9 pvp fragments

    I rank primalist and warrior among the best PvP classes because they have exceptional bursts as well as some of the best healing specs compared to other classes. Rogue, however, have better utility and support and troll tank. They also have the ability to stealth "forever" which favors a lot of the warfront designs. Cleric and Mage are very heavy countered by themselves and the martial classes. You can't like cleanse paragon or RB or thresher maw like you can do for the FOTM specs of clerics and mages.. which are reliant on double LSH(which happens to be backend damage so very easy to cleanse before last ticks come off...very laughable design choice for the current meta) and dots from warlock.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 11-12-2019 at 10:34 PM.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedynn View Post
    What you want to aim for is fragments with tier 1-4 with Crit Power. Like Tier 2 fire, tier 3 water and tier 4 air with CP primary and in some cases earth and life depending on the class. For secondaries, you will want your main stats and crit chance. For instance, for a martial class, a T2 WAR fire fragment with CP primary stat and secondary stat of Dex, Str, Crit Chance, and either life or endurance would be best in slot. .
    Some of the last post was tl;dr . But just to get to the heart of the matter, from your personal collection do you have the T1 frags that you speak of here, when you talk about what to aim for? Because I referred to whether these exist or not in my prior post. If so, have they allowed you to perform like a Nivlak or a Plusen or any high performers? There is theory but then there is what actually comes to fruition. I'm wanting to moreso focus on what you have experience on actually producing vs theory.
    Last edited by Sails; 11-14-2019 at 12:50 AM.
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    Im with Sails. People talk theory but Ive yet to see someone say, for example, “Dude, you can get X damage look heres me doing it, and its because of Y (lets say Y is frags). I have this frag and this maxed etc..,”. All Im seeing is theory crafting and none of the actual people doing amazing things explaining any of it.

    Also, telling me you've seen some person perform at a very high level doesnt help since I believe several, several people by now are cheating. With what little player base we have chances are you did see them, and indeed they did hit the numbers you saw.Chances are some buddy they got playing also has the same hack and yes theres a select few performing as you see...but can YOU do this? Ive shown screenshots and get answers that someone they saw can do that, yet why cant they replicate this easily enough? If people are hitting codas for 65k why isn't there a plethora of rogues doing at least regular 55k on full geared players? Im just saying Ive seen no one show me, then explain clearly “It was this and this”, etc..,

    Dont get me wrong Id love to see it, but explaining over and over about consumables and gear etc.., doesn't really convince me because I have full pvp gear use consumables (save for reliquary which would just increase crit chance not make you hit higher numbers) and use the lvl 65 BIS gear. I even play the exact same build to the T how it was described coming out of stealth for sin buffs and getting max emptiness stacks. The only unknown is frags which mine are decent.

    I perform relatively well EXCEPT when certain players who have crazy numbers enter-no one plays well then its like a killing field where people are 3-5 shotted consistently.

    Had an interesting conversation with a talented vet player who performs very well on some of his toons. He told me, in a factual manner, that he has 3 buds that hack by sending packets to the system. He called them O and D packets, which increased damage and defense so they took less damage. Stated they'd figured out long ago how to hack the system. Stated he mostly pves so hes not interested in it but was 100% sure he knew several others performing just like his buds. He wont name them since they're buds, which I understand. Now he could be trolling, but it was a decent conversation and with some believable information since Ive already heard from others in my other post that the only way to hack cheat is exactly how he was stating they were doing it.

    I know warrior is strong, and primalists. I also know only a few players go beyond what Ive seen vet players playing said souls can do, by quite a bit. Theres also the rogues that are vets that do tremendously well. Then theres the rogues that do impossibly well making that vet player look like a new player. Those are the ones Im questioning.

    Also, for me questioning this games security so much, have you seen a single moderator or dev chime in. Games not being/hasnt been monitored in years security wise. Logically someone has made a hack by now. I mean what better test market then a game you can try to hack with no one stopping your attempts until you are successful. You could have even just challenged a friend who doesn't even play the game to do so.

    Edit: Would love a frag overhaul or more transparency so we could eliminate that as a possible issue on why players play as well as bugged abilities in the past which were fixed within weeks
    Last edited by Wrastion; 11-13-2019 at 07:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrastion View Post
    Im with Sails. People talk theory but Ive yet to see someone say, for example, “Dude, you can get X damage look heres me doing it, and its because of Y (lets say Y is frags). I have this frag and this maxed etc..,”. All Im seeing is theory crafting and none of the actual people doing amazing things explaining any of it. Edit: Would love a frag overhaul or more transparency so we could eliminate that as a possible issue on why players play as well as bugged abilities in the past which were fixed within weeks

    Dude, I don't even need to test this spec in PvP. I can tell this can hit for high damage just by testing in on the dummy. It is hitting for 1.2+ million crit with my PvP gear and fragments. Don't you have rift meter? I will test it in PvP just for you. I don't play much anymore... though...

    This has unreal crit chance but you can see it is possible. The crit chance is unreal, just luck so ignore.. and I am happy I got this on my first warfront. The debate is whether I should have used sin instead of ranger.. though.. Maybe even more flattering 70K+ hit.. Also, since you mentioned Nivlak.. maybe you can tell him to use that spec. I know for a fact he has better gear score than me since I can see he has higher damage with precision strikes and you can't really mess up that spec since it is really straight forward to play.

    Here is a full Coda Spam boosted.... Lucky Crit chance as well cause my crit chance is in the dog house with this spec normally. RFS from Bofors seems to be better overall spec.. other than against high armor targets... but I use armor penetration in my MM spec anyway.. shrug. I guess it is really good if pocket healed and can get in melee of several players.

    Also, it isn't as faceroll to use. I had to gain max stacks of emptiness.. use blazing path to drop out of combat which is NOT easy with all the dots but I used cleanse soul, and then come back in with dark malady and barely had enough time to get all codas done before emptiness stacks dropped off. YMMV if you want to boost this ability.

    https://paste.pics/8cb5b66c8187874896482ecd95d5da55

    Max Hit was my best Crit at 68.1K
    Lowest Hit was 18.9K
    That tells you how variable the damage can be when boosted and not boosted and when it crits and doesn't crit. So if you play the spec wrong which I am thinking you are doing then yes it is possible that you are not boosting your coda properly and why you see such low numbers with your damage output. This is all you need to know.. as it shows everything you will ever need to understand about the way the spec works even on the low end as the lowest hit is only 18.K which means I probably had 0 emptiness stacks and it was a non crit.

    Also, you may actually want to try the spec out on the dummy. You don't even need to be in warfronts to know that this type of damage is possible. Anything over 1 million damage in PvP gear is going to hit Hard AF in pvp unless it was targeted with a PvP nerf. And there is no patch notes that say it was.
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 11-13-2019 at 11:12 PM.

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