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Thread: PVP doesn't make sense, perhaps i need someone to share a different perspective.

  1. #1
    Telaran Elitizt's Avatar
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    Default PVP doesn't make sense, perhaps i need someone to share a different perspective.

    I have came back to RIFT after a 5 year break, and I have gotten a couple toons up to 70. PVE-wise i have a really good grasp on it all. PvP however, makes no sense to me. Tons of things have changed and not for the better in my opinion, but maybe it's just because i'm not understanding the whole big picture or something. I'd like to give pvp a fair chance, but it all seems imbalanced and just overall unfun. I guess i'll go over some things that don't make sense to me or just seem plain dumb from where i'm sitting.

    First thing is gearing in general/gear gap between new pvp players and veterans/pvp modifiers. I think it's a huge issue that the game has nerfs on PVE gear and frags, but there are no PVP starter gear sets that a player can get to start pvp fresh. A new player is already at a huge disadvantage because of the massive learning curve and all the hidden knowledge things in pvp. They don't need the extra handicap of being completely defenseless(constantly 2-3 shot to death) AND not being able to deal sufficient damage to even scratch a geared players armor. The gear gap seems really huge and unnecessary. Most noob players seem to do 1-3k damage and Geared players avg about 13k+ on the meters from the matches i have played.

    When you're not geared you feel completely worthless. The farming it takes to even get basically geared in pvp is nearly unbearable. It feels like you just have to feed your brains out for ages before you can even get a weapon so you can even start to damage enemy players. A weapon takes 800k favor to get, and most matches i'll get anywhere between 1.5-5k favor, with a favor pot AND a win I can maybe get 10k+. Then you have a ton of just your gear to farm at 100-300k favor a piece. That's a TON of pointless games wasted feeding and being farmed. I'm not even going to get into the whole "PvP frags are RNG" too much at all. It's just ridiculous for everyone. The bigger issue on that would probably be how much information is lacking for new pvp players. Most don't know or realize how much of an impact PVP frags make, and/or that they even exist at all.

    I don't understand the pvp modifiers at all. I get a vague idea about pve gear "stat squish" but not sure how it all works specifically. Healing in WF's REALLY makes no sense to me, I can't seem to get any of my healing specs to even move player's bars back into the green. Yet i see players basically full healing themselves with a click of a button. Healing has become alien and unintuitive. PVP DPS still doesn't make complete sense with some of the nuances, but healing is even more confusing.

    "Yanks"... The game has seem to devolved into nothing but weird awkward standoffs in the majority of WF's,... and then "YANK, CC, BOOM, DEAD" rinse, repeat strats. I don't see how this playstyle is fun for anyone involved. Everyone just stands around waiting for an enemy to get yanked into the frothing pirahna tank. OR same basic idea, with a couple of stealthed rogues spawncamping graveyards. There's not much individual "skill" to it at all. It gets very monotonous and boring, very quickly.

    Another thing is all the weird and secret tricks/exploits that a niche circle of hardcore pvp'rs all seem to know and exploit. I guess some of that comes from just playing and game experience, but it sullies the pvp experience when you run into a player constantly abusing things. It seems that underhanded things, instead of being frowned upon in the pvp niche is actually kind of respected or something. It hink they share their findings with eachother and use those secrets to abuse the larger overall population outside of their circles. There is no shame in abusing exploits as far as the community goes, or so it appears. I don't know, but it's just really weird to me.

    Overall, the bar across the board seems to be set very low as far as standards go. From my point of view it looks like you grind and grind and grind, feeding the whole time until you finally get a full gear set and some decent/actually USEFUL RNG frags and can become OP enough to easily kill other noobs that are undergeared and just trying to farm favor. The individual skill either isn't rewarded or isn't sought after by geared players, because they don't really seem to take other geared players on unless they have a huge numbers advantage. It all seems like a pathetic and cowardly playstyle. Maybe I'm missing something, but that's just how i perceive it all.

    These are just a few of my observations off the top of my head from my very limited pvp experience after my return to the game. If anyone wants to chime in to give me any tips or maybe a different perspective on some things pertaining to pvp, i would be really open to the discussion. Thanks in advance.
    There are 3 types of people in this world...
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    2. People who like to push buttons

  2. #2
    Rift Disciple
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    you could start by telling us what class and souls you play, what are the exploits you saw exactly
    most of the time player with low dps play very weak spec which are not even use for pve or pex

  3. #3
    Rift Master
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    You are using your PvP pots wrong. You are NOT supposed to spam it on warfront charges or wins/losses. You are suppose to save your weeklies up and wait to turn them in before reset. Then you use pot and turn them in for an enormous favor boost and have the rest of the time to do some waterfront charges. I've maxed my favor out more than a few times doing this for several weeks straight. It took me around 350-500 games won to gear my toon but it is mostly searching for the planar fragments that continue to be the problem not the favor cost of the gear.

    The PVP fragments are the worse idea in terms of itemization. PvP doesn't reward enough plat to upgrade and the rng on fragments are so horrendous that it takes a while to get decent ones. I've clocked over 1000+ games on two toons and have barely good ones on just one toon. It basically pays to win for those who just buy rex and sell for plat since they will have an early advantage in PvP than someone who has to farm for plat on the side through PvE questing.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 09-02-2019 at 01:39 PM.

  4. #4
    Telaran
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    You are pretty much on point with everything.

    Now that primalist Farseer heals has been nerfed hopefully we will see heals buffed up globally in PvP in the next couple weeks.

    As far as exploits go most of it is just naling the meta for PvP which is why only the hardcore folks seem to have it right. Not only to you want PvP gear which you will notice the hard core players have a few non-PvP pieces because they provide higher stats but you will also want maxed out frags. You will also need to test out skills in PvP and build around that as some skills are not very effective in PvP due to nerfs over the years.

  5. #5
    Soulwalker
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    Spot on. Rift PVP is total trash. I would just ignore it and do as much as needed for weeklies, BP. I have full PVP set and frags, as mage, but it's just trash. I think in current state, past few years, is the worst PVP I seen in an MMO and my PVP experience goes back to 93-94 Diku MUDs.

    I don't understand how is it fun to run over pve players who farm datagrams,BP etc, with same 1 lame OP build for weeks, months, years..

    PS! I have all them "vets" on ignore, since they tend to rage in tells when their OP prima or rouge dies to mage
    Last edited by putinandpullout; 09-03-2019 at 03:11 PM.

  6. #6
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elitizt View Post
    I have came back to RIFT after a 5 year break, and I have gotten a couple toons up to 70. PVE-wise i have a really good grasp on it all. PvP however, makes no sense to me. Tons of things have changed and not for the better in my opinion, but maybe it's just because i'm not understanding the whole big picture or something. I'd like to give pvp a fair chance, but it all seems imbalanced and just overall unfun. I guess i'll go over some things that don't make sense to me or just seem plain dumb from where i'm sitting.
    Welcome back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elitizt View Post
    First thing is gearing in general/gear gap between new pvp players and veterans/pvp modifiers. I think it's a huge issue that the game has nerfs on PVE gear and frags, but there are no PVP starter gear sets that a player can get to start pvp fresh. A new player is already at a huge disadvantage because of the massive learning curve and all the hidden knowledge things in pvp. They don't need the extra handicap of being completely defenseless(constantly 2-3 shot to death) AND not being able to deal sufficient damage to even scratch a geared players armor. The gear gap seems really huge and unnecessary. Most noob players seem to do 1-3k damage and Geared players avg about 13k+ on the meters from the matches i have played.
    the gear itself isnt as much of a problem as you think.
    there is essentially only one tier of pvp gear. the box gear and the store gear only vary slightly in stat variations, but are about equal to each other.

    pve gear in pvp: here we run into the Bolster System, which is essentially two systems in one.

    gear that is not pvp gear and weaker than pvp gear gets bolstered up to a "pvp gear floor" that is weaker than pvp gear. runes/consumables/dream orbs on the pve gear do continue to provide their benefits. empty slots do not benefit from any bolster. they remain empty. newbie players tend to have empty slots.

    gear that is stronger than pvp gear gets bolstered down to a "pvp gear ceiling" that is slightly weaker than pvp gear. how much weaker? we dont know. in the past, some bolstered slots have in fact been stronger than pvp gear.

    some newer pve gear are not being bolstered as they should.
    some older pve gear is still better than pvp gear due to benefiting from runes/dream orbs that are not available for those slots at lvl 70.

    frags are a whole different kettle of fish. this is where the biggest discrepancy is.
    essentially, you need pvp frags. acquiring them is painful. we all know the pain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elitizt View Post
    When you're not geared you feel completely worthless. The farming it takes to even get basically geared in pvp is nearly unbearable. It feels like you just have to feed your brains out for ages before you can even get a weapon so you can even start to damage enemy players. A weapon takes 800k favor to get, and most matches i'll get anywhere between 1.5-5k favor, with a favor pot AND a win I can maybe get 10k+. Then you have a ton of just your gear to farm at 100-300k favor a piece. That's a TON of pointless games wasted feeding and being farmed. I'm not even going to get into the whole "PvP frags are RNG" too much at all. It's just ridiculous for everyone. The bigger issue on that would probably be how much information is lacking for new pvp players. Most don't know or realize how much of an impact PVP frags make, and/or that they even exist at all.
    if you cant dps, try something else. there is more to warfronts than just dps and heals.
    what that something else is will depend upon your class and how well you know each soul and specific abilities.
    different maps will require different somethings else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elitizt View Post
    I don't understand the pvp modifiers at all. I get a vague idea about pve gear "stat squish" but not sure how it all works specifically. Healing in WF's REALLY makes no sense to me, I can't seem to get any of my healing specs to even move player's bars back into the green. Yet i see players basically full healing themselves with a click of a button. Healing has become alien and unintuitive. PVP DPS still doesn't make complete sense with some of the nuances, but healing is even more confusing.
    trion stopped even pretending to balance souls for pvp a long time ago. things have only continued to get worse.
    there are probably entire pages of code buffing and nerfing and re-buffing and re-nerfing specific abilities and souls for pvp. imo they need to throw the whole lot out and start from scratch;

    Quote Originally Posted by Elitizt View Post
    "Yanks"... The game has seem to devolved into nothing but weird awkward standoffs in the majority of WF's,... and then "YANK, CC, BOOM, DEAD" rinse, repeat strats. I don't see how this playstyle is fun for anyone involved. Everyone just stands around waiting for an enemy to get yanked into the frothing pirahna tank. OR same basic idea, with a couple of stealthed rogues spawncamping graveyards. There's not much individual "skill" to it at all. It gets very monotonous and boring, very quickly.
    if you cant dps, be the yank tank.
    this is partly due to the meta changing in NMT to make pvp faster with a shorter TTK, and partly due to near complete un-viability of melee dps. there is no melee front line mixing it up, and all the ranged dps are engaged in an awkwardly comedic dance to be the one hiding behind everyone else's skirts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elitizt View Post
    Another thing is all the weird and secret tricks/exploits that a niche circle of hardcore pvp'rs all seem to know and exploit. I guess some of that comes from just playing and game experience, but it sullies the pvp experience when you run into a player constantly abusing things. It seems that underhanded things, instead of being frowned upon in the pvp niche is actually kind of respected or something. It hink they share their findings with eachother and use those secrets to abuse the larger overall population outside of their circles. There is no shame in abusing exploits as far as the community goes, or so it appears. I don't know, but it's just really weird to me.
    much of this is bleed over from changes made to the game for pve reasons.
    some of it is just knowing the general map mechanics well.
    some of it is just knowing a class well.
    all of it is to do with Trion beating pvp into the ground with a club, giving it a solid kicking, taking its wallet, phone and shoes, then relieving itself on the unconscious victim.

    pvpers dont share their secrets, even with each other. they used to, back in a distant golden age. then the things they shard started being taken away..

    Quote Originally Posted by Elitizt View Post
    Overall, the bar across the board seems to be set very low as far as standards go. From my point of view it looks like you grind and grind and grind, feeding the whole time until you finally get a full gear set and some decent/actually USEFUL RNG frags and can become OP enough to easily kill other noobs that are undergeared and just trying to farm favor. The individual skill either isn't rewarded or isn't sought after by geared players, because they don't really seem to take other geared players on unless they have a huge numbers advantage. It all seems like a pathetic and cowardly playstyle. Maybe I'm missing something, but that's just how i perceive it all.
    you arent missing anything. this is exactly how it is.

    part of the problem is that there simply isnt enough players in pvp to create separate queues for the newbies and the pros.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elitizt View Post
    These are just a few of my observations off the top of my head from my very limited pvp experience after my return to the game. If anyone wants to chime in to give me any tips or maybe a different perspective on some things pertaining to pvp, i would be really open to the discussion. Thanks in advance.
    tips: use a recon vial (rift store, boosts, near the bottom). use insoles. use other consumables too. if you only have one pvp spec, you are doing it wrong. tweak multiple specs for specific maps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

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