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Thread: Way to make pvp fun again

  1. #16
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrastion View Post
    To be fair there are a limited number of ranged specs that are good. The problem is, they are overly good so played by most players. What Im saying is that ranged, as a blanket whole, doesnt need fixed, just certain souls. Its the same for melee though too. If you show me ranged MM/NB As overly powerful Ill give you pure MM, bard, sab, and ranger, none of which are played in pvp to (really) any effect when compared to NB/MM. its the same in a lot of the other callings, just 1-2 overly good ranged that need one or two abilities nerfed to balance things out.

    Same needs done with heals and melee. Also, mage dots in pvp are just silly, and any soul that one button does everything for you and tops dps is an issue. This was a design error the Trion devs ran to when they had no one to actually balance design souls anymore. They literally crammed soul improvements into 41, 61 points and legendaries vs spreading the improvements out throughout the trees. This in turn destroyed most hybrids and also turned most OP souls dps or hps from 1-2 abilities. Thats also how (most) the OP souls work in pvp. Your rotations then become more rote vs varied because to maximize output you simply want to hit that one ability over and over as much as you can.

    Riftmeter shows this. Most OP souls its one ability doing 50-60% of dps or hps. That is to say, pushing one button accounts for 50-60% of your skill. Gear only makes it worse. The design has caused this, and taken us far, far away from skillful play with attacks and counters.
    i don't think you are quite understanding Augustus's point.

    it doesn't matter if just one or two souls vs a whole lotta souls are good.
    the issue is the majority of teams are ranged. the majority of players will always choose to play ranged because its simply easier and safer than staying in melee range of a moving target right in the face of the entire enemy team.
    when someone does try to melee, the entire enemy ranged team focuses them down by default - note: they aren't intentionally or even consciously focus firing. they couldn't do that at any other point in the match because they simply have zero sense of team coordination. but the melee player gets burnt by this.
    its actually been a problem since Storm Legion, and there was even an inadequate attempt made to address it at one point (many melee souls had extra effects added to their charges either buffing themselves and/or nearby allies, or debuffing enemies. these effects have never been noted on tooltips)

    I covered this in my earlier post where i mentioned risk vs reward and making melee able to melee again.
    quite simply, no ranged dps should ever match a melee in both survivability and burst damage output.
    all ranged already have a built in advantage by virtue of being 100% effective at maximum range, and no pull or charge is able to completely balance that (particularly with breakfrees, cooldowns and immunities involved).

    a ranged dps should fill their trousers and run for their lives whenever an enemy gets into melee ranged.
    instead they face tank and lol tab -> burn

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    i don't think you are quite understanding Augustus's point.

    it doesn't matter if just one or two souls vs a whole lotta souls are good.
    the issue is the majority of teams are ranged. the majority of players will always choose to play ranged because its simply easier and safer than staying in melee range of a moving target right in the face of the entire enemy team.
    when someone does try to melee, the entire enemy ranged team focuses them down by default - note: they aren't intentionally or even consciously focus firing. they couldn't do that at any other point in the match because they simply have zero sense of team coordination. but the melee player gets burnt by this.
    its actually been a problem since Storm Legion, and there was even an inadequate attempt made to address it at one point (many melee souls had extra effects added to their charges either buffing themselves and/or nearby allies, or debuffing enemies. these effects have never been noted on tooltips)

    I covered this in my earlier post where i mentioned risk vs reward and making melee able to melee again.
    quite simply, no ranged dps should ever match a melee in both survivability and burst damage output.
    all ranged already have a built in advantage by virtue of being 100% effective at maximum range, and no pull or charge is able to completely balance that (particularly with breakfrees, cooldowns and immunities involved).

    a ranged dps should fill their trousers and run for their lives whenever an enemy gets into melee ranged.
    instead they face tank and lol tab -> burn
    No I did understand him. I play several melee-centric souls. My warrior is primarily paragon, which does have a time-based semi ranged ability, but overall to perform good you have to know how to melee. In most wfs I perform pleasantly well, but yes there is the wfs that ranged just plasters you. The issue to fix this is complex, and has many sides to it.

    Make melee pure out better then ranged and if heals are good melees dominate and ranged eill go wt hell sm I playing ranged? Make ranged = to melee and ranged can just kite and melee is going wt hell dont I just be ranged. Its tough to balance. Make melee too survivable and a single healer + melee cant be stopped. Etc.., I could go on with balance scenarios..

    And so I simply suggested nerfing ALL the existing OP abilities down. My reasoning is because currently, aside from threshers Maw and maybe 1-2 more ranged abilities, melee, to me, IS better then ranged. Its already more bursty. So if you lowered the OP souls melee would live longer (everyone in general would), yet melee would remain burstier (yea yea made up word), then ranged and in general kill enemy ranged players that they now have a better chance reaching, and can stay next to longer, in killing someone and extracting yourself before your killed.

    Unless of course you intend to get in, stay in, and kill people, all on your own while not being mowed down. Thats a powerful soul to be able to do that.

    Realistically on a lot of wfs I can kill people super fast so its simply tactics to ride in, preferably at an angle, burst someone down, then leap out. I do it all the time, and see most the good melee doing it. Not saying its perfect, or always works, but it is a method. To me the issue is not that everyone is ranged, its that some ranged do ridiculous dps and it only takes 2 people to play any of a couple of overly OP souls to kill one person in 3-4 seconds. That is a major issue.

    Id fix the ttk first, balance heals around a good ttk number, then adjust melee last in the new scheme of balancing. Thats all.

    Last, yes there is a pull that can fix the issue. There was, note was, a pull that worked like a charm. They disabled pulls ports and pushes to not work with one another. I made the method to create a melee-friendly battle against most anyone I wanted to, until the disabling because...oh yea me. To be clear I was moving players 45 meters total on my warrior which placed anyone roughly 10-15 meters outside interference by other heals and dps. I would rotate playing a reaver version or paragon version to charge said pulled player to insta root. But Trion saw fit to handicap melee by disabling these interactions, again because...ahhh they needed it? Lol.

    If anything to help melee out they should re-enable what one butthurt dev disabled. Im all for helping melee in these skillful, more unique ways for sure.

  3. #18
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrastion View Post
    Stuff.
    i can totally get on board with un-nerfing the pull/push immunities

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  4. #19
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    Mele died when ST healing was eliminated towards the end of NMT. The two are forever intertwined. Once Trion got rid of the Trinity it was the final nail in the coffin - along with PVP gear and many other poor choices on their part at the beginning of NMT. They simply could not monetize PVP so they did their best to eliminate it.

    The other part to this was once NMT took hold and tons of PVP players left - the void was filled with tons of casuals running around wanting a 1st person shooter or MOBA (the PVE'rs had to participate in PVP for some rewards). They did not understand Trinity mechanics or how to compete against it. So they cried and got their wish, the Trinity was eliminated, PVP died and they left.

    ***Tin Foil Hat Time***
    They made those changes at the beginning of NMT to force players to Archage (just being released) - where it was heavily monetized.
    Last edited by Joebuu; 08-06-2019 at 07:26 AM.
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  5. #20
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    Default current state of pvp in this game (****)

    the pvp system of everything is all ****ed up. the type of classes that u have to pay for with irl money are broken. not coming back to this game for while now. to much ******** in all the warfronts with the p2w classes

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacsAreBad View Post
    the pvp system of everything is all ****ed up. the type of classes that u have to pay for with irl money are broken. not coming back to this game for while now. to much ******** in all the warfronts with the p2w classes
    Oh its much more then the p2w souls.

    Truth be told its several souls, after they are geared. The gear combined with frags and legendaries put certain souls into maximum overdrive. All that is happening is more players are getting max geared and max fragments and you suddenly have super performing players. I can pretty much tell you who has most likely either spent an eternity maxxing frags out, or just simply paid to max them out, which most certainly can be done since you can buy the requirements to upgrade in the shop. This gives unlimited upgrading until you get exactly the stats you want on your lowest tiered frags. When my warrior finally got geared and decent frags the change was very noticeable.

    Also of interest is googling rift cheats/hacks and seeing someone in 2019 showing a program that hacks damage, plat, speed, etc.., Every games has cheaters, without fail. The only difference from one to the next is the policing of it. There is 0% policing. The game is busted enough the other problem is I could run around with an extra 30% permanent speed boost and damage and you'd never know it. There is no transparency with frags, exploits already in game etc.., already that you wont know. Also, theres no one to tell who cares or would even fo anything about it. No one is actively looking to stop it either, which means several people are most definitely hacking. All I definitely know is several players always move as if they have speed boost on, do more damage on same abilities other is but definitely do more, and several seem to get off more abilities in a gcd then most other players. If its not hacking, its just pure out gear issues with frags being too powerful in conjunction with other souls. Everyone likes to mention skill now, but seriously everything happens in a matter of seconds its all just a macro mostly, meaning the damage you do is most the difference. When you macro your break free into your abilities, the games skill went out the door. These aren't timed, well played out battles, but rather spam able macros that end lives in seconds.

    Summary: Yea lots of issues.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by luerverton View Post
    ah i sayd the wrong, its not only eternals
    the legendarys killed pvp. like legendary upgrads that give 120% damage, etc
    But they nerfed the legendaries in PVP. At least, they nerfed Cleric's legendaries anyway.
    Last edited by Xlavius; 08-19-2019 at 02:25 AM.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xlavius View Post
    But they nerfed the legendaries in PVP. At least, they nerfed Cleric's legendaries anyway.
    Legendaries still account for a lot of a souls dps or hps in pvp, to the point its actually 50-60% of its total output in some souls. Ive seen several legendaries account for 60%+ on some souls consistently, and the rest usually sit around 40-50 + regularly.

    When your soul requires you to hit one button and is worth 50% of your “skill”, thats not skill just a requirement to achieve over the top performance. After all, even a mouth breather can hit one button.

    Unfortunately the problem is as the game progressed, devs left, and the quickest, easiest way to “level up” was cramming everything into legendaries. Lack of manpower at its finest. This effectively killed 90% of hybrids and created must have cookie cutter builds for pve and Pvp. Now in both avenues you cant play the majority of souls and compete. Your stuck with a select few that overly perform and the majority are never used to any great effect. Legendaries should have increased say dps by 25% and added X to an ability, not 100% and added X and Y and Z, all of which majorly created the soul and were placed at 61 points making most players full souls and ruining (most) hybrids. This really hurt the players like me that enjoyed trying to make interesting hybrid builds. Really its a shame because that build system was core to what made this game in the beginning.

  9. #24
    Ascendant Rheven's Avatar
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    PvP can be fun. I generally do it every day. I like a PuG where peeps understand the issues and proceed onwards. Balance is still an issue. You get these 58-3 kill ratios. And some peeps healling for 10-20 millions. Hard to burn that down. Can be done (if focus yah) but it makes for boring matches. Maybe load teams by heals (or task). IDK. There are a ton of exploits going on though. Like you say. Or at least things that never seem intended. That will just get worst if Gamigo don't care. Last one out get the light okay.
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  10. #25
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    If you look at Bladedancer after the ttk change you can't say it was toxic as it was before. well why is that? The change has pros and cons it gave all specs some degree of effectiveness.

    In my opinion, a middle ground between the ttk then and now would of been optimal.
    You can't make a blanket change in pvp where the number of ranged specs are highly disproportionate to melee specs with no recourse for melee specs.

    I think all melee specs that are really bad need to simply be made viable so it becomes popular.
    When it comes to melee ive noticed that at times even stepping forward to decide whether to jump in and melee renders your health bar more then 1/2 gone in about what seems to be about a second.
    When this happens the melee spec has to in turn leave the whole area spend an eternity trying to get out of combat for the next opportunity to melee. Is that good for pvp?

    the current TTK is faster than most rotations.

    A warrior spec like the NPTD/Touch of life one doesn't yield any benifits at all anymore. Because the ttk, lack of attck speed and damge from paragon pretty much make it pointless to play.
    Even tho warriors had the old nptd/touch of life it's survivability was not more than current harbringer in melee.

    As a rule of thumb when it comes CC's stuns etc the durtion of them shouldn't exceed the duration of TTK.Before the change blade dancers were killing targets about as fast as the duration of theri stun.
    There is to many break free's instead of lowering the duration of stuns in pvp they bandaid fixed it with another break free.

    you have spent time and energy on pvp already so why not do right by it.

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