+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 33
Like Tree7Likes

Thread: How does the pvp matchmaking system work?

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    109

    Default How does the pvp matchmaking system work?

    I just found out that PvP players are matched up in warfronts based on their wins? Where can I find my number of wins? Is it per week?

    I guess this explains why the queue times are so much longer when I group with a friend who doesn't have pvp gear. (He doesn't like pvp, but bless his heart, he plays with me anyway just because I like it so much).

    One of the well-geared players was really beating up on my friend over and over again. I feel angry at that person, but probably just more angry at myself for my inability to protect my friend. Was this somehow my fault? When a player who does a lot of pvp joins up with a player who doesn't, does that inadvertently trigger an unfair match filled with O.P. players vs. people who don't stand a chance? Have I sentenced my friend to doom by grouping with him?

    Hey, you know how Cadrift explains a bunch of PvE stuff? Is there a similar site for PvP?
    Last edited by Sarleaf; 07-17-2019 at 07:44 AM.
    70 Cleric Sarleaf@Hailol, BoS tank, PvP healer
    alts: Frazzleweed@Hailol (lvl 24 mage); Sarifiber@Typhiria (lvl 7 warrior)
    Rift PvP videos: https://tinyurl.com/y2dl6oym

  2. #2
    Telaran Slaybae's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    87

    Default

    The queue times and matchmaking has been horrendous for a very long time. Sometimes you have a full team of primalists, sometimes you get a full team of players with only pve gear on or sometimes you get a team full of highly skilled pvpers that would just end the warfronts as Quick as possible with no much of a challenge.

    There's also cases of players with a very high winrate not getting frequently into the warfronts unlike players with lower winrates, which i would imagine is also frustrating.
    https://gyazo.com/ae345963423e9df4e70beb9decad7aff

  3. #3
    Champion of Telara Challengere's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    1,236

    Default

    The match making system has little bias, it places random players after assigning premades and the premade 5man groups on your team may want to farm the entire 15min or turbo slam it before their team mates even get out the gates.

    the biggest issue that NMT and BP brought out was PvE based gearing with the elimination of the old PvP gear sets, this brought in the element of PvE players who wanted to get the weekly rewards for pvp that didnt care if they actually did the pvp mechanics right at all destroying pvp strategy based play that used to exist prior. frustrating the pvp player base, now few pure pvp players are still here and no where close to enough of them to populate open world pvp quests on SS that at one point existed for them.

  4. #4
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    7,187

    Default

    rift pvp uses a variation of an ELO match making system, where individual players have an ELO ranking based off of their wins. the system attempts to "balance" the overall total team ELO.

    a first time pvper starts off with an ELO of 1500.
    this goes up when they win. down when they lose.
    if the other teams ELO is more than your teams ELO and you win, it goes up by a larger amount. if you lose, it goes down by a smaller amount. (the game expects the team with the higher total ELO to win).
    the more matches you have played. play, the less your ELO goes up/down per match.

    additional mechanics:
    the system attempts to place premades (groups of 3 or more players queued together) equally on opposing teams.
    the system attempts to place players flagged as having played heal specs in pvp equally on opposing teams
    the systems attempts to place players who are currently experiencing losing streaks equally on opposing teams (the "free win" mechanic).
    the system is rigged to attempt to push a players win percentage to 50%. having a significantly higher win percentage is a potential indication of hax (but not necessarily - my primalist has a 60% win percentage, while my other toons can vary from 52% to 55%)
    there may be other mechanics not known to players.

    queuing with other players will often result in longer queue times, particularly if one or more of the grouped players has a higher ELO.

    players ELOs are hidden (they didnt used to be, but now they are).

    ELO is not an acronym. it doesnt mean anything. it is the name of the guy who came up with the ranking system (for chess).


    I'm Sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  5. #5
    Champion of Telara Challengere's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    1,236

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    rift pvp uses a variation of an ELO match making system, where individual players have an ELO ranking based off of their wins. the system attempts to "balance" the overall total team ELO.

    a first time pvper starts off with an ELO of 1500.
    this goes up when they win. down when they lose.
    if the other teams ELO is more than your teams ELO and you win, it goes up by a larger amount. if you lose, it goes down by a smaller amount. (the game expects the team with the higher total ELO to win).
    the more matches you have played. play, the less your ELO goes up/down per match.

    additional mechanics:
    the system attempts to place premades (groups of 3 or more players queued together) equally on opposing teams.
    the system attempts to place players flagged as having played heal specs in pvp equally on opposing teams
    the systems attempts to place players who are currently experiencing losing streaks equally on opposing teams (the "free win" mechanic).
    the system is rigged to attempt to push a players win percentage to 50%. having a significantly higher win percentage is a potential indication of hax (but not necessarily - my primalist has a 60% win percentage, while my other toons can vary from 52% to 55%)
    there may be other mechanics not known to players.

    queuing with other players will often result in longer queue times, particularly if one or more of the grouped players has a higher ELO.

    players ELOs are hidden (they didnt used to be, but now they are).

    ELO is not an acronym. it doesnt mean anything. it is the name of the guy who came up with the ranking system (for chess).


    I'm Sorry
    my question is when was the info issued and have changes been made since then that were never made public to prevent exploiting

  6. #6
    Telaran Purrr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    84

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarleaf View Post
    I just found out that PvP players are matched up in warfronts based on their wins? Where can I find my number of wins? Is it per week?

    I guess this explains why the queue times are so much longer when I group with a friend who doesn't have pvp gear. (He doesn't like pvp, but bless his heart, he plays with me anyway just because I like it so much).

    One of the well-geared players was really beating up on my friend over and over again. I feel angry at that person, but probably just more angry at myself for my inability to protect my friend. Was this somehow my fault? When a player who does a lot of pvp joins up with a player who doesn't, does that inadvertently trigger an unfair match filled with O.P. players vs. people who don't stand a chance? Have I sentenced my friend to doom by grouping with him?

    Hey, you know how Cadrift explains a bunch of PvE stuff? Is there a similar site for PvP?
    I have found that when I play heals if I am grouped with someone they do get picked on a bit more I guess people take it out on them for grouping with a healer.
    Its nice you have someone that plays with you even tho he doesnt like it much but hes also a target because he is squishy unfortunately OP players have a tendancy to sniff out new blood to keep up their kill numbers. When i was gearing up i was dead more than alive its just a painful process.

    Also if you want to know any stuff ask people in game im sure they would be happy to help.
    Purrr@Faeblight, Meowie@Faeblight, Purrfect@Faeblight, Xhex@Faebight + others

    Karma..what goes around comes around.

  7. #7
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    7,187

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Challengere View Post
    my question is when was the info issued and have changes been made since then that were never made public to prevent exploiting
    the info is quite old (some of it came from Ocho!)

    it is possible some things were changed and not made public. if that was the case, i, as a member of the public, remain unaware if it.

    however, given that Gamigo has done more pvp tweaking in the last 6 months than Trion did in the last few years, i would guess much of that info still remains relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  8. #8
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    109

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaybae View Post
    There's also cases of players with a very high winrate not getting frequently into the warfronts unlike players with lower winrates, which i would imagine is also frustrating.
    Yes I heard about that! Very interesting. My win rate seems pretty random. Some days I lose 6 in a row, other times win 6 in a row.
    70 Cleric Sarleaf@Hailol, BoS tank, PvP healer
    alts: Frazzleweed@Hailol (lvl 24 mage); Sarifiber@Typhiria (lvl 7 warrior)
    Rift PvP videos: https://tinyurl.com/y2dl6oym

  9. #9
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    109

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Challengere View Post
    ...open world pvp quests on SS that at one point existed for them.
    Are these only on Seastone? Where would one pick up such quests?
    70 Cleric Sarleaf@Hailol, BoS tank, PvP healer
    alts: Frazzleweed@Hailol (lvl 24 mage); Sarifiber@Typhiria (lvl 7 warrior)
    Rift PvP videos: https://tinyurl.com/y2dl6oym

  10. #10
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    109

    Default

    Wow, thank you, Sorry! Lots of great info, here. So there already IS a free win mechanic in place—that's interesting. Seems like the ELO system was a good idea; when you write it out here, it seems like it's a pretty balanced system after all.

    Hopefully this ELO system won't... bring me down....
    https://youtu.be/VeszfFvSJQY
    ba-dum-tss!
    Thank you, thank you, I'm here all night. Try the veal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    the system is rigged to attempt to push a players win percentage to 50%. having a significantly higher win percentage is a potential indication of hax (but not necessarily - my primalist has a 60% win percentage, while my other toons can vary from 52% to 55%)
    Do you mainly heal on your primalist? Have you noticed anything different with this new patch update? (Like, do you heal for less or what exactly do these patch notes mean?)

    http://forums.riftgame.com/general-d...17-2019-a.html

    PVP: Fixed a bug where some abilities were bypassing the PvP healing modifiers. The following abilities are now modified correctly:

    Primalist:
    Primal Avatar: Ram
    Legendary Primal Avatar: Ram
    Thread of Fate
    Legendary Thread of Fate
    Shifting Wind
    Savage Excitement (now has an appropriate internal cooldown. The internal cooldown fix is applied in PVE as well)
    70 Cleric Sarleaf@Hailol, BoS tank, PvP healer
    alts: Frazzleweed@Hailol (lvl 24 mage); Sarifiber@Typhiria (lvl 7 warrior)
    Rift PvP videos: https://tinyurl.com/y2dl6oym

  11. #11
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    7,187

    Default

    i havent played on my primalist much at all for a long while now, and when i did it was mostly as a tank. while prima is OP right now, i find it lacking in fun factor in comparison to rogue or warrior, and it has effectively zero interesting hybrid options.


    on the surface the Elo system does appear fair, but it has its issues.
    the starting Elo of 1500 gives new players a significantly higher Elo than their effectiveness in a warfront. this alone can imbalance teams. the system may match two undergeared newbies with a combined Elo of 3k against a fully geared and experienced kill farmer with an Elo of 3k + repeat offender AFKer with a single digit Elo on the other team. in this situation the newbies are gonna get rekt.

    the mechanics also encourage experienced kill farmers to tank their Elo by... well, not exactly throwing matches, but just generally avoiding trying to win where possible.. so as to get faster queues against easier opponents.

    the overall Elo spread in the game might not be what you think. when it was visible, many experienced pvpers had Elos in the single and double digits. the best had Elos of 4k+ and there was notably fewer in the middle spread (1k-3k). this is why premades of high Elo players have such long queue times - trying to match a 5 player premade with a combined Elo of 15-20k with a pool of pugs that cant even total 10k with a full roster of 15 players breaks the system. particularly when you realize the remaining 10 pug players that get placed on the premades team will be the lowest 10 Elo players currently queued.

    on the surface, the system looks good. in practice, players can find it frustrating and/or painful. you'll love it ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  12. #12
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    7,187

    Default

    Also, honorable mention for Fernand, one of the better warriors of the game during Storm legion (when the Elo matchmaking system was introduced). had is raw Elo tanked into low single digits due to the system at the time using weighted Elo, of which his was one of the highest. whats the difference? a discussion for another day perhaps.

    you will find an NPC bearing his name near the PvP quest givers in Margle Palace, making inspiring declarations and surrounded my npc robots auto walking into the wall (representing the AFKers and Bots the matchmaking system always put on his teams)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  13. #13
    Rift Master
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    629

    Default

    Down to the very basic core. There is three outcomes. 0 you tie, 1, you lose, 2 you win.

    Remove 0 and you are left with a heads and tails system at the core with no matchmaking necessary as long as the system is completely randomized. In a randomized system, it is 50/50. If you play enough games in this sort of system you should be around the 50% mark, however, you can have very long streaks of losses and very long streaks of wins since the number of games played is defined and limited. A correct system would attempt to balance 50/50 wins and losses over a finite number of games not an infinite number of games. Let us use a coin toss as an example. If you define the amount of coin toss at 10 the likely hood of you to get 50/50 all the time is low but if you define the number of tosses at say 1 million it will be closer to 50% than at 10.
    That is one problem they tried to solve.

    There are other problems they tried to solve. If a spec is far too OP and have too much sway in a win or loss that is an influential factor which works against the finite system. If the system constantly pairs the best healers playing online or they premade it can have too much influence especially on 10 tosses instead of a million. There are others factors but mainly the point is in a completely random player warfront you should eventually hit the 50/50 at an acceptable pace as long as the system defines the total amount of games in which you should see a 50/50 outcome. For instance, you can play 300+ games and be at 67% but at 1000+ it would be 50-55% and 2000+ lower, etc. The system would have to make a ton of mistakes for you to not be close to the 50% mark @ say 2000 games played even if there are a lot of player carrying going on since it is actually attempting to force 50% all the time.

    As for class balance changes, Farseer is still the dominant healer after a patch. The other specs which were once playable content became less playable or not worth playing. If you look at it from the devs point of view it means a lot fewer things to balance. If you look at it from the player's point of view it means fewer ways to experience the game or less playable content. The optimal approach would have been to provide a counter to counterbalance. In this way, you add more playable content. Unfortunately, it would take special kind of developer who has an immense understanding of classes and the authority and intelligence to perform that sort of degree of changes into class balance. A very few amounts of players have a vision of balance that can work really well and those usually go unheard sadly.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 07-19-2019 at 05:06 AM.

  14. #14
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    109

    Default

    Making some great points up there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    on the surface, the system looks good. in practice, players can find it frustrating and/or painful. you'll love it ;)
    Hah! ::grins:: <3
    Looking forward to seeing you in WFs. I have new emote macros to use (unless people completely destroy me within seconds so I don't have time to use them, which seems to be happening recently, lol, but I hope to use them because I think it's hilarious, because.........

    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    i havent played on my primalist much at all for a long while now, and when i did it was mostly as a tank. while prima is OP right now, i find it lacking in fun factor in comparison to rogue or warrior, and it has effectively zero interesting hybrid options.
    .........you're hitting on something here that I've been thinking about: Playing what is fun vs. what is "best" to play at any given time.

    Take the recent primalist nerf (or balancing, really). Some people might complain that it's useless to play a primalist healer now (since they're not OP af). So they'll go on to whatever class is the new powerful.

    Then some people might say towards me, for example, don't even bother with cleric healing in pvp because it's not worth it.

    Yeah, but gosh darnit, it's fun. Doesn't that count? Yes, it does! I like it when people can be free to play the classes that they personally feel are fun for them. I continue to play the cleric because I love it. Who cares if it's not "ideal" or whatever.

    On the topic of interesting hybrid options, I'm currently experimenting with a purifier-warden-druid spec that's 32/44/0. It comes fully equipped with one (1) extraneous battle rez and a monstrosity of a cleanse macro. It's kinda fun and I'm growing to like it more and more. One thing I want to try is having a druid pet on attack mode next to a flag. I think it will attack you if you sneak up and stun me and try to take the flag. ("But, Sarleaf, it's only level 30." Shut up! Let me have my fun.) The point is, it may not be the "ideal pvp healer" but whatever, you know? it's fun, that's that point.

    One more question. I was talking to someone who says that because of the matching system, he's rarely on the same team as you, Sorry. What would this mean for me, I wonder? If we end up on the same team, does that imply I haven't been doing too well in PvP? And if we're on opposing teams, that means I'm in a winning streak? Just thinking out loud, here.
    70 Cleric Sarleaf@Hailol, BoS tank, PvP healer
    alts: Frazzleweed@Hailol (lvl 24 mage); Sarifiber@Typhiria (lvl 7 warrior)
    Rift PvP videos: https://tinyurl.com/y2dl6oym

  15. #15
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    109

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    Also, honorable mention for Fernand, one of the better warriors of the game during Storm legion (when the Elo matchmaking system was introduced). had is raw Elo tanked into low single digits due to the system at the time using weighted Elo, of which his was one of the highest. whats the difference? a discussion for another day perhaps.

    you will find an NPC bearing his name near the PvP quest givers in Margle Palace, making inspiring declarations and surrounded my npc robots auto walking into the wall (representing the AFKers and Bots the matchmaking system always put on his teams)
    That's awesome! I wanna go see that NPC. See, that's so great, and it gives a connection to the creators of the game and the people who play. Little jokes that can be shared, to close the gap.
    70 Cleric Sarleaf@Hailol, BoS tank, PvP healer
    alts: Frazzleweed@Hailol (lvl 24 mage); Sarifiber@Typhiria (lvl 7 warrior)
    Rift PvP videos: https://tinyurl.com/y2dl6oym

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts