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Thread: Ranged is disgusting

  1. #1
    Plane Touched AVGVSTVS's Avatar
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    Default Ranged is disgusting

    rift pvp has devolved to back to a former state. instead of robust pvp full of dynamics, its auto following ranged spam for anyone who comes in range for even a millisecond.
    Pulls like sergeants orders and primalist yanks only serve to bring in 1 player in range of a 10 ranged spec firing squad. Wf's like whitefall turn into this stalemate where players just won't even play and stand around.theres many diff ways to skin a cat to fix this. but i don't think this is what was intended by trying to make pvp better.

    If in the rare occasion you make it out of a flurry of kiter spam and find cover after all the ******** thats coded to hit you passes through all the walls and barriers you could imagine. of course, there's no collision detection right? god forbid a ranged spec took slightly more brain cells. all this being said well why wouldn't a DOT tick on you for 10x longer than the TTK? right, so you click your drink until you get carpel tunnel syndrome. Its classy af.

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    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    i agree wholeheartedly

    there was a reason the TTK was increased after the debacle that was NMT pvp. what they failed to do was re-adjust the maps to accommodate the longer TTK. when NMT shortened the TTK they also shortened map duration and increased point gains per objectives. this resulted in faster paced pvp, with outlier specs effectively being able to one shot opponents in pvp, and ranged zerg spam with focus fire by default thanks to tab targeting. melee didnt stand a chance. though to be fair, even during SL the devs struggled with melee pvp viability (and have always completely missed the entire point of tanks in pvp).

    when player dissatisfaction finally pushed them into increasing the TTK, the maps were never reset to match the new TTK, resulting in The Great Age of Tank Domination of pvp (well, i had fun, even if others didn't).
    the current meta is a return to the ranged spam zerg and an incredible dumbing down of pvp where players will only follow the zerg, and the zerg knows no leadership (and will resist any and all attempts at direction) regardless of map or objectives.

    along with the many other things needing to be done to fix pvp *cough* nerf primalist *cough* the TTK and maps need to be re-balanced towards a longer game. (but maybe not quite so long that tanks become the game deciders again).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

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    Ascendant Flashmemory's Avatar
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    Whitefalls has always been a sort of range zergfest. The map was designed with massive kite room. You have the options to go range on that map. It is not denied from you or you can even go heal, support or tank. Some classes have a good advantage if they still want to melee in that map but for the most part it is only when the party sizes on both sides are small where melee actually make more sense for some melee classes specifically mage, rogue and warrior who have fantastic melee specs for small skirmishes and disconnects even on a wide open map.

    Honestly, I would say you don't play much of it to experience enough scenarios to make a sound judgment. In general, I have encounters with melee many times. The range is more often but melee still works well in many maps, in smaller encounters, and tanks still work well especially with healers to frontline push. Just yesterday we had a WL/PALA getting pocketed by two healers in a zerg on whitefalls and they basically pushed the full range zerg on the other side back to basically get based farmed even though they had a primalist healer on the other side. We did have many DoT/pull specs which is trouble for those healers.

    I will still fall behind with my assertion and my experience with 100s upon 100s of games with the classes is that cleric dps and healing is the only players that should be in revolt mode when it comes to pvp. It is as clear as night and day that cleric is in need of the most changes to make them as viable as the other classes in PvP on those fronts. Right now they don't even feel like part of the equation.

    TTK can be too high depending on how smart the teams play which is not very smart usually which is why TTK feels low. When you have one healer average stuck with the task of healing 14 other players of course TTK is going to feel low generally where 90% of them don't want to role switch it can feel low. If you want to see how bad TTK can get a few healers together and premade with them. I have felt the godmode being pocketed healed and not only by farseer but also warchanters and fk/chloros in the same group and those FK and WC healers seem to keep me up longer than farseer when holding killing objectives btw. In general, most players including myself are still ignorant to the classes potential viability playing other roles and how the outcome would have been if we knew how to successfully play those roles even if they didn't seem as powerful as you may first think. Unwillingness to even try to learn other roles that have substantially higher TTK increasing abilities will cloud judgment going forward. There aren't many guides on theorycrafting PvP builds as well.

    Most people just play a build from a guide and it becomes the norm. Others develop the playstyle they are comfortable with playing and never venture off to play other styles that can make a difference. Guides for PvP are lackluster as well and most people don't want to make a guide when they find something that works because of fear of it being nerfed. There are tons of altruistic specs that make a difference in PvP as well but the effort to learn them is daunting to most players. Some people enjoy having like 10-15 pvp roles.. others can't even fathom having more than one all in one spec. Like others have said in the past it is mostly a player issue and Trion put much fear into older theorycrafters and guide writers because of the constant nerfs focused around those guides so those hidden gems usually stay hidden.
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 06-03-2019 at 06:56 PM.

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    Plane Touched AVGVSTVS's Avatar
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    to be clear not all facets of the new TTK I dislike.

    You stated that a because a WL/PALA was being double pocket healed with its DPS pushed an entire team to its spawn.

    I highly doubt that was the case 2 healers is more than an enough to push an entire team to their spawn. Hell even one prima healer is enough to turn the table and totally piss everyone off. the "wl/pala" as you say was just there doing that just being there. I have a wl/pala with every integrated rune you can imagine we do last a long time but not enough dps to solely push a team back quick enough for the others dps to not be a factor. your statement doesn't make sense.

    You are bringing a healing argument into this. this is a question for another time.
    ask your self should one healer make it so the opposing with no healer completely be decimated? if so too which degree? this is a debate to be had.

    My post isnt saying quite literally that this issue happens 100% of the time it doesn't but its most of the time. many times a melee spec gets completely put in a nearly endless downtime due out of combat being so unforgiving.

    Heavy blanket changes that change only 2 aspects of pvp will not work because we have been here before.

    I would propose that a dynamic change be made with some middle ground approach to lowering ranged damage as whole for melee specs in varying degrees depending on their survivability.

    ranged is so insane at times that even ranged specs are getting molly whopped by ranged before they get into range,,.

    yeah whitefall is a ranged map but everything is a ranged map now BG is this small area where its spam fest in close quarters its quite ridiculous.

    I understand why this is an issue because the fix would need changes that have variables.

    similar to modern automobiles that have variable valve timing. a diff set of variables based on the situation.

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    You can't just nerf range abilities. And actually, it is melee abilities that are turned into a range that are kicking major *** in pvp. IE paragon and Primal Lord burst. MM as well but at least you can interrupt and LoS them. BD AE with 2 dances with HFB and other buffs etc. DoTs from warlock can hit hard but think of it this way..you at least have a chance to survive if you get away.. Other burst specs would have killed you right away.. People will prefer to range no matter what. It is quite funny how in order to nerf range you have to nerf melee souls. Don't you think?

    It is pointless and Trion already did go through nerfing range directly and it was a worse time in Rift. Eventually, they nerfed Riftblade, Nb/sin, bloodstalker, and even shaman was neutered. The problem is psychological. Players who die to range get less butt hurt than if they die to melee since they know who killed them most of the time in melee more often but if they die to the range they subconsciously feel it was an overwhelming effort from multiple players and they feel less butthurt. That is my excuse for why Trion nerfed pure melee or gave them powerful range damage for a limited time or pull specs except for cleric. And btw plenty of maps are melee friendly not just bg.And if you want specs like shaman which is a run in and die trying spec with very little survival to work in zergs you are asking for a massive overhaul of many souls including those identities that are melee and range from each class. Shaman playstyle is virtually defunct and never was updated to fit the current meta. Heck they now play worse than 1.x Champions. If you were around at that time one big thing they had was the fear bomb that was very essential to champion being viable but now with all the break frees added those specs are less viable and this mix range burst with melee and pull specs seems to be what makes melee work. That along with stealth from harbs and rogues and up'ed beefiness of warlord and harbs or nb and sins coming out of stealth etc. Like others have said Cleric is missing nearly all the essentials to make them as viable in PvP.. Warlord/Paly IS really strong and a great 1v1/1v2 spec vs. pure dps. I have seen them kill multiple players in 1v2 actually and top Killing Blows. I don't think any other class can have that sort of utility and survivability access with that amount of dps at all.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 06-05-2019 at 04:54 PM.

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    Rift Disciple Lulutala's Avatar
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    You won't see many melee dps because there's no healers to keep them up. 3.7 or whatever the last patch for nightmare tide was, had the most balanced healing in recent times, which made melee viable.

    In 3.7, Warriors had WC/lib, Clerics had Puri/sent/wardinel, Primalist had Preserver, Mage had FK/chloro and rogues were kinda meh. Right now you have one class that everyone and their mother has rerolled to because the output is crazy compared to other specs. When 17 out of the top 20 healers are Primalist you know there's a healing problem.
    Harrisonford

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    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashmemory View Post
    Honestly, I would say you don't play much of it to experience enough scenarios to make a sound judgment. In general, I have encounters with melee many times. The range is more often but melee still works well in many maps, in smaller encounters, and tanks still work well especially with healers to frontline push. Just yesterday we had a WL/PALA getting pocketed by two healers in a zerg on whitefalls and they basically pushed the full range zerg on the other side back to basically get based farmed even though they had a primalist healer on the other side. We did have many DoT/pull specs which is trouble for those healers.
    you're anecdote concerning the WL/Pala is more a testament to the current state of healing than any argument in favour of melee viability and does more to actually highlight the point of this thread than counter it.
    the opposing team was driven back not because of a melee wrecking them, but because they derp tab targeted to the nearest enemy (a tanky melee spec) who was little more than a meat shield held up by broken heals. it just happens that in your example the heals were sufficient for the melee to survive the ranged focus - a very rare occurrence.

    so, simple question for anyone disagreeing with the threads argument: do you think the average Battle Pass farming PvE player could positively contribute to their teams efforts by playing a melee spec of any class without dedicated pocket heals?
    to the same degree as playing a tab targeting ranged zergling?

    if yes, melee is fine.
    if no, this thread might just have a valid point.

    P.S. i dont disagree that cleric needs some love
    P.P.S. i pvp way too much in Rift.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    you're anecdote concerning the WL/Pala is more a testament to the current state of healing than any argument in favour of melee viability and does more to actually highlight the point of this thread than counter it.
    the opposing team was driven back not because of a melee wrecking them, but because they derp tab targeted to the nearest enemy (a tanky melee spec) who was little more than a meat shield held up by broken heals. it just happens that in your example the heals were sufficient for the melee to survive the ranged focus - a very rare occurrence.

    so, simple question for anyone disagreeing with the threads argument: do you think the average Battle Pass farming PvE player could positively contribute to their teams efforts by playing a melee spec of any class without dedicated pocket heals?
    to the same degree as playing a tab targeting ranged zergling?

    if yes, melee is fine.
    if no, this thread might just have a valid point.

    P.S. i dont disagree that cleric needs some love
    P.P.S. i pvp way too much in Rift.
    Not to mention that you are asking for your own class to be nerfed for some reason. In fact the leaderboards have been like this for many many weeks. If melee did not work well why is one of the strongest classes on top of the charts weekly ever since the changes on their melee specs?

    Anyway, I believe you really have been wrong more times than right when it comes to TTK. Look what happened to PvP when everyone cried about TTK and we had all these immortals running around. Queue times shot up to 8-10 mins during the prime time..and matches were half filled. Basically, PvP was destroyed. Btw you can use reliquary, pots as well as your cooldowns and have plenty of survival in hybrid tank spec.
    https://i.ibb.co/6n67wwB/MELEE.png

    Now if you want to argue about the small group of fresh 65-70's being fodder for those who are geared and use consumables and stuff like reli wisely then that is not about melee. It is about bolstering needing to be tweaked for the low geared players and/or a revamp on how much effort it takes to gear up players especially the amount of investment into planar fragments where you have someone who dropped 15K++ on level 15's while those still stuck in trash 0's feel like they can't stand a chance. Those are the big flaws in PvP at the moment and cleric needing good quality changes. And I think the other big problem you don't want to say directly is how easy it is for many of the classes like warrior and rogue and primalist and to a lesser extent mages to perform well because of how the classes are designed around 1 button mostly easy delivery of their burst.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 06-04-2019 at 06:31 PM.

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    Ascendant Flashmemory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    you're anecdote concerning the WL/Pala is more a testament to the current state of healing than any argument in favour of melee viability and does more to actually highlight the point of this thread than counter it.
    the opposing team was driven back not because of a melee wrecking them, but because they derp tab targeted to the nearest enemy (a tanky melee spec) who was little more than a meat shield held up by broken heals. it just happens that in your example the heals were sufficient for the melee to survive the ranged focus - a very rare occurrence..
    I am not saying that it happens all the time. It happens enough and they are worth playing when it makes sense. Others have brought up a good point with good evidence that melee does well but it is because of the design of those melee that allow them to play range. Stealth and having good survival and pulls are also key as well as teleports to get out of danger. All of these increase your survivability. They work and it shows that it works. Warrior has the most melee souls and I would argue that they are in some sort of bad place. I think maybe they are a bit over tuned if you ask me but so many classes have their own advantages that just picking and choosing to nerf one aspect is inherently bad as a whole.

    I do believe that healers en mass are still really powerful but in many cases altruistic and creative players can come up with counters to the solo ones. Most just choose not to. And in many cases they can have a healer and you can have a tank hybrid and still win even if you deem tank hybrid mostly useless. Have you ever picked up a stone as a WC and then switched to your pala with full life followed by the save me from warlord? So much points you can put on the board going to almost a 200K tick solo! They are definitely useful in the right hands of a good player who knows how to take advantage of situations. I don't find many good farseers but the few I do find queue often. Have you ever tried to play farseer? I think you will be in for a shock. It isn't as faceroll as you may think to play and certainly not as easy as playing dps. When you play them and find their weaknesses is when you realize that they are not so good alone if you choose to counter them btw. Unfortunately, many many players are not willing to learn those counters and yes there are counters to those counters as well as playing those specs yourself.
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 06-04-2019 at 07:31 PM.

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    Any wf that produces a KB streak in the 25-30+ range. That's people who are getting straight farmed and are sorta letting it happen there's alot of fresh blood in wf's like kronos was saying due to BP.

    Wf killing blow streak is a pride piece and aesthetic type thing. an anecdote.
    when you get a wf where you have heals and the other team actually still fights and your playing say bladedancer does it take skill to continue that momentum? well it takes some depending on the situation. well define skill 30+ kb's that's alot of bloodthirsty procs.

    I wouldn't use a wf kb streak as an example.

    Id use a wf with competent players with ranged specs and melee specs.

    However I will add that a wl/pala full tilt will take on 3 lesser geared non bonafide pvp players.
    evrything changes when ppl play well and have frags. WL/pala isnt a terrible place but the ladder is true ranged is to much.

    People doing their BP pvp dailies or weeklies dont have 10's of 1000's of plat spent on "war" frags that you can't even get anymore.
    Last edited by AVGVSTVS; 06-04-2019 at 07:11 PM.

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    Ascendant Flashmemory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AVGVSTVS View Post
    Any wf that produces a KB streak in the 25-30+ range. That's people who are getting straight farmed and are sorta letting it happen there's alot of fresh blood in wf's like kronos was saying due to BP.

    Wf killing blow streak is a pride piece and aesthetic type thing. an anecdote.
    when you get a wf where you have heals and the other team actually still fights and your playing say bladedancer does it take skill to continue that momentum? well it takes some depending on the situation. well define skill 30+ kb's that's alot of bloodthirsty procs.

    I wouldn't use a wf kb streak as an example.

    Id use a wf with competent players with ranged specs and melee specs.

    However I will add that a wl/pala full tilt will take on 3 lesser geared non bonafide pvp players.
    evrything changes when ppl play well and have frags. WL/pala isnt a terrible place but the ladder is true ranged is to much.

    People doing their BP pvp dailies or weeklies dont have 10's of 1000's of plat spent on "war" frags that you can't even get anymore.
    If everyone who queues has the same chance to get into a warfront where they can farm out the other side wouldn't you think the top KBs would be less homogenous? Regardless how you look at that statistic it definitely holds some weight to balance. According to that statistic it shows warriors and primalist have great killing power and delivery of burst.
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 06-04-2019 at 07:50 PM.

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    Plane Touched AVGVSTVS's Avatar
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    Post a picture of total damage. 1st place is an inquisitor and hes the only one who takes playing cleric srsly tbh I don't even recall seeing an inquisy for a long time since, what if more geared players played it would that change your argument?. rift population when it comes to which class is played basically comes down to being trendy. 2nd place is a mage 3rd is a prima. killing blows has alot to do with the mechanics of a build. its possible a spec with less damage could get more killing blows.

    well why is a mage and cleric on top dmg. its because they can kite from a safe location.
    Warriors and melee will tend to commit to melee when they know a kill will come out of it.
    Last edited by AVGVSTVS; 06-05-2019 at 06:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AVGVSTVS View Post
    Post a picture of total damage. 1st place is an inquisitor and hes the only one who takes playing cleric srsly tbh I don't even recall seeing an inquisy for a long time since, what if more geared players played it would that change your argument?. rift population when it comes to which class is played basically comes down to being trendy. 2nd place is a mage 3rd is a prima. killing blows has alot to do with the mechanics of a build. its possible a spec with less damage could get more killing blows.

    well why is a mage and cleric on top dmg. its because they can kite from a safe location.
    Warriors and melee will tend to commit to melee when they know a kill will come out of it.
    That statistic isn't about warfront damage done in a single warfront. It is about all the damage that is done in every warfront you played being added up. Btw, the weekly was just reset so expect for that to change a bit. If you play 10x longer than other players you will have big numbers too and that guy plays pvp an incredible amount of time per day.

    His damage comes from spreading dots like scourge and its the same reason warlock gets high number. Maybe you can play reaver and do the same. Just remember to spend 5-10 hours in warfronts per day to get on that person's level lol. Not only that but one of the top damage from the end of the week statistic I made was actually a Riftblade that has exceptional kiting power.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 06-05-2019 at 04:47 PM.

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    I mean I hope this is obvious but the only thing we have achieved by going back and forth about the leaderboards is that its shown they are just an anecdote.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AVGVSTVS View Post
    rift pvp has devolved to back to a former state. instead of robust pvp full of dynamics, its auto following ranged spam for anyone who comes in range for even a millisecond.
    Pulls like sergeants orders and primalist yanks only serve to bring in 1 player in range of a 10 ranged spec firing squad. Wf's like whitefall turn into this stalemate where players just won't even play and stand around.theres many diff ways to skin a cat to fix this. but i don't think this is what was intended by trying to make pvp better.

    If in the rare occasion you make it out of a flurry of kiter spam and find cover after all the ******** thats coded to hit you passes through all the walls and barriers you could imagine. of course, there's no collision detection right? god forbid a ranged spec took slightly more brain cells. all this being said well why wouldn't a DOT tick on you for 10x longer than the TTK? right, so you click your drink until you get carpel tunnel syndrome. Its classy af.
    Honestly you have to have a ranged spec and/or tankish spec along with a dps spec, and switch out, wf and team makeup depending. I switch on the fly all the time. Its part of the game, or part of what makes you better at the game.

    Some wfs are really range intensive, totally agree. However, melee is, in general, the most bursty souls in game currently, with most the overpowered souls being melee. The game added some range on melee, however, which is part of the problem. Its not really just melee persay now, but 20 meter melee or abilities that temp. make you attack ranged vs. melee. With runspeed out of control, its almost a nightmare to be pure melee now, barring certain super speed melee souls.

    If you would nerf ranged, my already overpowered paragon would get more ridiculous. And the warriors that outdo me on a warrior would be godly, since I"m not a bad player.

    The real issue is personal experience, and the bolstering being pitiful. Every player will say something different about how a wf plays out, just by having different gear. My 80% full geared warrior will run around most wfs going, hmm, I'm destroying lots of players. I can even run in, destroy one person, and leap back to get healed up. A lower geared warrior will say man this sucks. I cant even get close and do anything before I die. Nerf ranged!

    i.e. They really need to fix gear balance, then these discussions could have real meaning. Until then, its just a sucky experience, most likely, from undergeared players complaining, which I whole-heartedly agree, but am looking at the issue from the perspective of gear balance first, then look at ranged vs. melee when everyone is actually performing closer on par, gear-wise.

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