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Thread: Thoughts about PVP Balance

  1. #1
    Shadowlander disso1's Avatar
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    Default Thoughts about PVP Balance

    Yeah the topic isn't new and with the recent changes in damage and heal I'm realy happy to see that something is being done. But there is still a lot to do, because while some specs became a lot more relevant again (Inquisitor, Warlock, Elementalist), healers in a whole pretty much got the boot. I know it was just the first step but I want to come up with some ideas how to improve the balance further, with obvious things, before realy specific tweaks have to be done.

    1. Fragments

    I'm pretty sure that the majority of players still isn't fond about this system. And there are enough reasons why.

    - Droprate

    To be honest, the droprate of fragments is horrible, especialy since former devs decided that its a good idea to add cores to the pvp box loottable, especialy since there is no other way to obtain them.

    - RNG

    As we all know, it takes a lot time to get a fitting fragment and often you don't remain happy about it, for example if your CP Fire fragment reveals 4 tankstats after investing 1000's of plat in it.

    - "Balance"

    Considering that the usual way is trying to have as much CP as possible since CP>all, this combo is pretty much basic for all classes (correct me if im wrong)

    Fire CP - 624 (t2)
    Water CP - 477 (t3)
    Air CP - 421 (t4)

    CP on Earth and Life are t5 and t6, so pretty weak, Death is t1 and non existent in PVP

    So, what to put into other slots?

    Primalist and Rogues get

    497 Dex from Death (t2)
    382 Dex from Earth (t3)
    257 AP from Life (t4)

    Mages as example get

    294 SP from Death (t3)
    Probably Endurance from Earth since Int/SP are t5/t6
    And can decide between Int/SP from Life since both are t4

    Where are the good main stat fragments?
    Fire t2
    Water t3

    So mages have to decide to either go for heavy CP or heavy Int while Rogues/Primas have everything in the right spot.

    It also doesn't help that every class got a different element of which they can only put one fragment.

    I can't compare it to Warrior/Cleric, since I didn't do a fragment farm for those classes but I can imagine it doesn't look as good as for the Dex classes. (I know that t3 Str is Fire at least)

    We have a horrible droprate, we have the RNG of stats and we have classes benefitting more than others. We have a long and expensive grind which is frustrating and demotivating especialy for players new to PvP or returning players.
    I know that an overhaul of fragments would be very time consuming with all those things in mind, so my solution would be:

    Disable fragments for PvP.

    I know that ppl spent a lot of time and plat on their fragments (I'm one of them) but ultimately this is the best solution.
    It wont take too much dev time, it will kill a long and frustrating grind and it would be a helpful step into class balancing because, like I pointed out, classes benefit differently from them, and we can eradicate a big amount of randomness from the data since a player with fully upgraded fragments obviously will reach higher numbers than someone without in the same spec and if it's just because he/she wasn't lucky enough to get decent ones.

    2. Damage vs. Heal

    I'm realy happy about the new damage numbers and that other specs became viable again, but this patch made healers even more useless than they were already, except for Farseers which also have a lot of trouble now. I know that this was just the first step, but I want to point out what was the real problem in terms of tkk.

    - Tanks (and Max HP healing spells)

    When Trion changed the damage/heal modifiers back in 4.3 a lot of healing spells bypassed it, the ones to point out here are:

    - Primal Avatar: Ram
    - Legendary Primal Avatar: Ram
    - Legendary Flash of the Phoenix
    - Reprieve
    - Touch of Life

    Since the patch doesn't apply to them and damage is a lot higher now, ttk for tanks should be fine now. At least from my experience.

    - Farseer (or Legendary Fortune Protection)

    This Abomination of a skill most likely is the main reason why heal was only slightly increased and why all other healers than Farseer are now even more useless than before. Due to its mechanic it can still heal a lot but if you know how to deal with it and are able to play your character, nobody should have a problem with taking Farseers down anymore.
    If we take Clowds numbers (Damage was increased by 100%, Heal by 55%) I'd suggest to increase heal by at least 45% (So it's at a 100% increase, not 45% of 55%) while putting a pvp reduction of the same amount on Legendary Fortune Protection.
    Like this, Farseers remain beatable and other healing souls might become playable again.

    3. Outliers

    Lastly some specs that should have to be looked at since they are way to overtuned.
    The usual suspects

    Bladedancer (Why is this still a thing)
    Nightblade (Hellfire Blades)
    Warlord (A Quick Death)
    Primal Lord (Threshers Maw)
    Paragon/Riftblade

    So, thats my point of view regarding the first steps towards class balance. I also want to thank you that you're actualy looking at PvP at all and already did something. It gives me hope that Rift pvp can become great again.
    For everyone else, feel free to drop your thoughts on this.
    Last edited by disso1; 04-23-2019 at 03:01 PM.
    Disso@Zaviel - Dizzy@Zaviel <Chronic Insanity> Disso@Deepwood - Mulk@Deepwood <Excuse The Swag>

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by disso1 View Post
    ....
    Cleric has it the worse for fragment placement and the most worse designed souls for PvP in every category including tanking, dps, support, and healing. They have no good synergy so they are very limited in pvp. Yes, Mage is behind the other three in PvP but they are not so terrible. I have seen them regular top the DPS charts with lock, Ele, and actually kill most other classes in 1v1 with Harb.As for healing you are not suppose to heal a 10-15 with one healer. When they have a few it really gets out of control. But it really is dependent on Farseer and support healing from other classes.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 04-24-2019 at 10:49 PM.

  3. #3
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    Default Agree fully

    You basically mirrored my thread, and explained better, but I had all the same points. If they implemented even half these ideas pvp would gain so much for balance. Just a few more thoughts to add:

    1. They have more then just fortune protection to fix-that is if you up the heals in general, which they should. A few of the souls have some major broken heal (its usually just one heal) that they spam that is bypassing all nerfs and shouldn't. If they up heals by 45%, then those spamming those unn-nerfed heals will become too strong. It's beyond me why they can't figure out which heals are doing this and just get them in line like the rest of the heals, THEN buff healing to see where tweaking is needed.

    2. I'd nerf the proc abilities that are the main thing I'm seeing those souls you listed as OP first, because what I mainly noticed about those souls is their damage output was literally from 30-60% ONE ability, and at that a proc. Souls doubling up on said procs like hellfire blades and X ability make it even more crazy (one reason bladedancer is crazy in pvp). Also the unn-nerfed heals some souls still get which are way better then other souls insta heals.

    2. Removing one break free would go a long way imo as well. Allowing so many breakfrees on broken souls makes them not care about utility abilities in pvp since they literally bull-rush through everything and can easily kill someone in 1/3rd the time it takes to get through all of the breakfrees available now.

    3. They could easily fix fragments by making pvp fragments you get with favor or with tokens earned from doing pvp. Make them the best in slot for each soul and it encourages more players, makes the playing field achievable to be equal, and would encourage more money spent for Gamigo (since more players = more are likely to spend money on the game). Improving the player base and keeping them should be primary, not encouraging a dwindling player base to pay for everything.

    4. I'd also look at the run speed cap. It's a bit ridiculous how fast some souls can run. Also of point, the most broken souls also seem to have perma speed, making them even more of an issue then they normally would.

    5. I'd also like a good look through of pve items and some abilities that somehow constantly get through to pvp. It's not like one thing accidentally did, it's like a TON of things do, to the point our equipment, BIS, is a mix-match of even lvl 65 equipment. Either that or the bolstering equation is borked to the point it does these things. It's like a maze figuring out what is actually your BIS, when it should be obviously the newest pvp equipment.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedynn View Post
    Cleric has it the worse for fragment placement and the most worse designed souls for PvP in every category including tanking, dps, support, and healing. They have no good synergy so they are very limited in pvp. Yes, Mage is behind the other three in PvP but they are not so terrible. I have seen them regular top the DPS charts with lock, Ele, and actually kill most other classes in 1v1 with Harb.As for healing you are not suppose to heal a 10-15 with one healer. When they have a few it really gets out of control. But it really is dependent on Farseer and support healing from other classes.


    Inq is OK now (note just ok).

    Purifier has a broken near-instant full life heal, that repeats after 6 seconds and you're immune to death even if a team "kills" you in that 6 seconds before the next heal. I've created some frustrating dps/full heal mixes that are slow to kill players, but can outlive even some of the best broken dps. You've probably encountered such clerics but they normally go hybrid tank/full heal and sit on a flag.

    It's so sad considering that the normal heals are so low that I'm better off making a hybrid dps/healer with JUST THAT ONE HEAL, then using my normal actions to heal with the noodle heals. I normally get more heals then any other healer (minus farseer), and I'm flagged as a dps. I'd rather have the regular healing upped and the one ability fixed.
    Last edited by Wrastion; 04-26-2019 at 01:09 PM.

  5. #5
    Shadowlander disso1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrastion View Post
    You basically mirrored my thread, and explained better, but I had all the same points. If they implemented even half these ideas pvp would gain so much for balance. Just a few more thoughts to add:

    1. They have more then just fortune protection to fix-that is if you up the heals in general, which they should. A few of the souls have some major broken heal (its usually just one heal) that they spam that is bypassing all nerfs and shouldn't. If they up heals by 45%, then those spamming those unn-nerfed heals will become too strong. It's beyond me why they can't figure out which heals are doing this and just get them in line like the rest of the heals, THEN buff healing to see where tweaking is needed.
    The heals bypassing the nerfs also bypass the buffs, thats why they still heal the same amount like before. So that wouldn't be a problem if heal in general would get buffed and LFP would get a pvp reduction. If the %hp heals are fine like that is debatable of course.

    2. I'd nerf the proc abilities that are the main thing I'm seeing those souls you listed as OP first, because what I mainly noticed about those souls is their damage output was literally from 30-60% ONE ability, and at that a proc. Souls doubling up on said procs like hellfire blades and X ability make it even more crazy (one reason bladedancer is crazy in pvp). Also the unn-nerfed heals some souls still get which are way better then other souls insta heals.
    agree, words about the broken specs are out since a long time, just hope something will be done finaly.

    2. Removing one break free would go a long way imo as well. Allowing so many breakfrees on broken souls makes them not care about utility abilities in pvp since they literally bull-rush through everything and can easily kill someone in 1/3rd the time it takes to get through all of the breakfrees available now.
    I agree with that on those specs which have like 2 extra Break Frees

    3. They could easily fix fragments by making pvp fragments you get with favor or with tokens earned from doing pvp. Make them the best in slot for each soul and it encourages more players, makes the playing field achievable to be equal, and would encourage more money spent for Gamigo (since more players = more are likely to spend money on the game). Improving the player base and keeping them should be primary, not encouraging a dwindling player base to pay for everything.
    I'd prefer this way aswell, but hands down, that most likely is a ton of work to do and I couldn't imagine that they are up for that since the system is a complete mess. Basicly all fragment tiers would have to be reworked etc. That's why I'd suggest to just disable it. Saves a lot work and makes players more equal aswell. I'd rather see more runes/dream orbs back in the game to add extra stats, which already happened for some armor parts. Make them available for favor/pvp tokens -> completely fine imo.

    4. I'd also look at the run speed cap. It's a bit ridiculous how fast some souls can run. Also of point, the most broken souls also seem to have perma speed, making them even more of an issue then they normally would.
    Other issues with speed I see is 160% mountspeed. Being able to abuse p2w kickers to instamount also shouldn't work in pvp. On Top, The 21 Mystic Legendary/Non Legendary which actualy stacks is an issue aswell.

    5. I'd also like a good look through of pve items and some abilities that somehow constantly get through to pvp. It's not like one thing accidentally did, it's like a TON of things do, to the point our equipment, BIS, is a mix-match of even lvl 65 equipment. Either that or the bolstering equation is borked to the point it does these things. It's like a maze figuring out what is actually your BIS, when it should be obviously the newest pvp equipment.
    The first step luckily has been done by fixing earrings for primalists/rogues/warriors, what's left are raid neck/shoulder/cape and tank weapons from NMT, and who knows, maybe we will see a fix there aswell.
    Last edited by disso1; 04-26-2019 at 04:06 PM.
    Disso@Zaviel - Dizzy@Zaviel <Chronic Insanity> Disso@Deepwood - Mulk@Deepwood <Excuse The Swag>

  6. #6
    Prophet of Telara Refuge's Avatar
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    Suggestions:

    - Re-balance classes from ground up. Change the way most abilities work so skillful counters exist. Ensure all souls become useful in PvP.

    - Reprogram the fragment system, needs a big overhaul, or revert back to tertiary stats on gear.

    - Add new PvP gear for each class, including new cosmetics for each. Re-introduce PvP ranks and rewards. Add multiple up-gradable paths for gear to allow for varied play styles.

    - Add PvP mounts, Include an armoured unicorn that excretes a rainbow trail behind it that doubles speed and dmg of players in it's jet stream.

    - Introduce at least 3 more bg's including; 100 vs 100, zero gravity warfare and Siege of Orgrimmar.

    - Ensure mages are the most powerful while balancing all classes, ignore this paradox and make it happen, because let's be honest, that's all we care about in this thread.

    - Ensure all new and existing pvp players are assimilated into the hive mind. Failure to engage in neural synchronization will result in multiple players being damaged triggering god mode Farseer. Failure to abide will result in an instant kick from the bg and a 365 day debuff saying "killing a farseer is easy, but you failed".

    - Ensure all improvements are completely free and have no P2W links. All Rift players are entitled to changes that do not necessarily result in profit for Gamigo.



    These changes can be done by one Dev right? No? Are you serious?!

    Oh... well errr, screw it then I guess. I'll just keep duoing with a broken farseer for 6hrs straight instead. Can't fix it may aswell join them aye!
    Last edited by Refuge; 04-26-2019 at 04:38 PM.
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  7. #7
    Ascendant Flashmemory's Avatar
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    Cleric just needs to catch up in killing power with the other three at first. Mage has killing power and DPS is really high however it seems like it just isn't as easy to KILL STEAL with them which makes them look a bit bad on the charts but they are not as bad as many think.

  8. #8
    Rift Disciple hmmpvp's Avatar
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    Pretty sure no one from the Rift dept. reads anything in the pvp threads sadly. Feels like we are getting the same effort from gamigo like we did with trion in the pvp aspect of this game. They tease us with a little dab of work getting done, then just put it on the back burner after. Don't think they realize if they improve pvp that people will actually come back to this game.
    Fugzy@Deepwood - -Mage
    Fugz@Deepwood - - Rogue
    Fug@Deepwood - - War
    Fugza@Deepwood - - Cleric
    Primmo@Deepwood - - Primalist

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