+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 15 of 15
Like Tree44Likes
  • 8 Post By Horgrym
  • 7 Post By archcomponent
  • 3 Post By Artewig
  • 11 Post By Artewig
  • 5 Post By Nefelia
  • 4 Post By Horgrym
  • 3 Post By archcomponent
  • 1 Post By Malackye
  • 2 Post By archcomponent

  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Devs - why does it take you so long to make balance changes?

  1. #1
    Plane Walker
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    458

    Default Devs - why does it take you so long to make balance changes?

    Why cant you make small weekly adjustments?
    Boost a few weak abilities by 10% and reduce a few. Nothing game breaking.

    Every couple of months a few souls are raised to god-status and a few are crushed and many remain untouched and unplayed.

    Frequent small adjustments ftw.
    Currently you're doing the wrong kind of tweaking ;)
    Sklub Captainblood Opezmode Dpsclericlol Coad

  2. #2
    Plane Walker
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    468

    Default

    Here is one hint: it looks like you mistakenly used a plural noun there.
    !

  3. #3
    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    3,873

    Default

    Making smaller, more frequent changes is a lot more work, that's why.
    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse
    We are absolutely a service industry and you're only as good as your last contact with the customer.

  4. #4
    Plane Walker
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    458

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by archcomponent View Post
    Here is one hint: it looks like you mistakenly used a plural noun there.
    Lol.
    I cant edit the title sadly.
    Sklub Captainblood Opezmode Dpsclericlol Coad

  5.   This is the last Rift Team post in this thread.   #5
    Director of Community Relations TrionBrasse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    1,264

    Default

    Small changes are often made (especially critical ones), but a major balance pass takes months.

    Planning in house, data crunching, rolling out to the Public Test Shard, reviewing feedback, internal evaluations, more data crunching, review more feedback, hard coding and pushing to live. The last part is the EASY part.

    Balance adjustments are always ongoing in a game like RIFT where encounters change over time. =)

  6. #6
    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    3,873

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse View Post
    Small changes are often made (especially critical ones), but a major balance pass takes months.

    Planning in house, data crunching, rolling out to the Public Test Shard, reviewing feedback, internal evaluations, more data crunching, review more feedback, hard coding and pushing to live. The last part is the EASY part.

    Balance adjustments are always ongoing in a game like RIFT where encounters change over time. =)
    Yeah, no one is expecting balance to be perfect or for there to be no balance changes after a patch, but these "major" balance adjustments rarely do anything other than bring out new problems. Why do specs have to go from OP to useless? What's been said is that we'd rather see smaller adjustments if it keeps specs viable. And yes, we do understand that actually creating balance as opposed to the action of buffing and nerfing does take more work. But surely the community deserves it, right?

    Also, wouldn't it take less time, be less stressful, and overall, benefit the community as a whole if the responsibility was shared by more than just one person? Surely it wouldn't take a team of developers months to make these balance passes. I'd say the community deserves more effort, even if it does cost more money.
    Last edited by Artewig; 06-28-2017 at 12:12 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse
    We are absolutely a service industry and you're only as good as your last contact with the customer.

  7. #7
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    2,357

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse View Post
    Small changes are often made (especially critical ones), but a major balance pass takes months.

    Planning in house, data crunching, rolling out to the Public Test Shard, reviewing feedback, internal evaluations, more data crunching, review more feedback, hard coding and pushing to live. The last part is the EASY part.

    Balance adjustments are always ongoing in a game like RIFT where encounters change over time. =)
    One thing that baffles me is that Trion seems to ignore the wealth of data that players bring to the forums.

    I understand that players have their own biases and agendas, and that our individual opinions should not always be taken at face value. However, the community of quite effective at identifying outliers specs/abilities, and sometimes even provide workable solutions to balance issues better than just a straight nerf.

    Another thing that baffles me is that Trion likes to go big with balance changes, rather than using a more incremental approach.

    Sometimes that approach is necessary for vexing balance issues like the Vulcanist - which needs something a little more drastic than a 10% damage nerf on an ability or two (but even there people have offered a band-aid fix that could bring the Vulcanist back into the fold while Trion contemplates more long-term adjustments).

    The problem with the big-fix approach is that it takes a very long time, and ensures that broken specs and abilities linger for much longer than they should. Smaller tweaks of 5% to 10% on over-performing abilities and damage/healing bonuses may not completely resolve the balance issue addressed. However, in most cases it would blunt the edge some and make those outliers more manageable while Trion spends a week or two assessing the impact to determine whether more adjustments are necessary (and again, Trion could observe the community and forum commentary to help assess the impact).

    Another problem with the big-fix approach is that it tends to result in the nuking of specs. Specs go from overpowered to barely viable (and in some cases, not viable at all), leaving many players disgruntled and resentful. This also leads to dishonestly when people are discussing their preferred specs: many players jump to passionate defence of their OP specs because they know a 'correction' from Trion is likely to result in a harsh nerf that will destroy the performance of that spec.

    To wrap up my long-winded babbling: less big-fixes that take forever and sometimes break a spec; more smaller changes that bring immediate relief and lead to a more gradual and natural correction of outliers. Please.
    Last edited by Nefelia; 06-29-2017 at 07:16 AM.

  8. #8
    Plane Walker
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    458

    Default

    Nefelia said EXACTLY what i wanted to say. Exactly.
    i just wanted to keep my starter post short and to the point so it wouldnt be overlooked.

    Trionbrasse i know its not as simple as change a number, save, deploy (many of us are software developers in one form or another) But what you described was a 'major balance pass' in your own words.

    To reiterate, What i/we suggest is several minor and progressive balance 'tweaks' rolled out week to week instead of a single heavy handed hammer blow that takes months.
    Last edited by Horgrym; 06-29-2017 at 02:47 AM.
    Sklub Captainblood Opezmode Dpsclericlol Coad

  9. #9
    Plane Touched AVGVSTVS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    281

    Default

    I hate to keep re iterating but as a rule of thumb the ranged damage needs to be kept in control.
    right now I'm not even sure how under geared new players even survive and ive touched on this points many times during my rift career.

    The amount of ranged spam is too much for even ranged specs.
    whitefalls turtling and one sided steam rolling is because ranged is ridiculous.

    I'm not quite sure ive ever seen a time where in multiple warfronts there is nothing but ranged specs. not one person is in melee.

    Yes paragon is strong and I'd sponsor a nerf to its ranged distance taking it down from 20M to 10 or 15 M's

    then you have a rogues that can spend the whole entire duration of a wf in stealth if they wanted to.

    Balance is bad becuase trions is afraid to touch real issues because of this community

    perma stealth in fair and balanced pvp shouldn't exist.

    ranged nukes should be toned down especially with auto following projectiles AND the lack of collision detection on those ranged attacks.

    In other words if I beat a ranged attack or projectile to the punch and find cover. It doesn't matter its coded to have to hit you.
    i mean you got ranged dots and spams arrows bullets spells going around corners , through corners, through walls AND with avoidance neutered in pvp.

    pvp should be more like a real world battle where theres a chance for other factors to be happening such as a dodges and blocks. I mean do something for another factor to be involved regarding ****ing ranged damage make dodges still dmg but reduce dmg do something. its to cut and dry you kill you die you kill you die.

    we had this debate years ago where the community cried that their auto following projectiles were getting dodged and trion listened.

    the community ultimately doens't know what they want and things need to be changed for their own good.

    theres rules in baseball football and all sports rift pvp is just a circus
    Last edited by AVGVSTVS; 06-29-2017 at 12:13 PM.

  10. #10
    Plane Walker
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    468

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AVGVSTVS View Post
    I hate to keep re iterating
    I want to check that I am not mistaken here. Each and every poster previous to this was talking about something else, with 0% overlap with all of the specific items mentioned in the above and quoted post. Right?

    If this is indeed the case, I would respectfully encourage all to not follow towards derailment.
    Last edited by archcomponent; 06-29-2017 at 12:23 PM.
    !

  11. #11
    Champion
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    561

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nefelia View Post
    One thing that baffles me is that Trion seems to ignore the wealth of data that players bring to the forums.
    Well, that's not true. Whenever anyone cries "Nerf Cleric" the devs emmediately get their nerf-bats out.

  12. #12
    Rift Chaser Malackye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    329

    Default

    Buff Inqs.....

  13. #13
    General of Telara littlepoit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    964

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nefelia View Post
    One thing that baffles me is that Trion seems to ignore the wealth of data that players bring to the forums.

    I understand that players have their own biases and agendas, and that our individual opinions should not always be taken at face value. However, the community of quite effective at identifying outliers specs/abilities, and sometimes even provide workable solutions to balance issues better than just a straight nerf.

    Another thing that baffles me is that Trion likes to go big with balance changes, rather than using a more incremental approach.

    Sometimes that approach is necessary for vexing balance issues like the Vulcanist - which needs something a little more drastic than a 10% damage nerf on an ability or two (but even there people have offered a band-aid fix that could bring the Vulcanist back into the fold while Trion contemplates more long-term adjustments).

    The problem with the big-fix approach is that it takes a very long time, and ensures that broken specs and abilities linger for much longer than they should. Smaller tweaks of 5% to 10% on over-performing abilities and damage/healing bonuses may not completely resolve the balance issue addressed. However, in most cases it would blunt the edge some and make those outliers more manageable while Trion spends a week or two assessing the impact to determine whether more adjustments are necessary (and again, Trion could observe the community and forum commentary to help assess the impact).

    Another problem with the big-fix approach is that it tends to result in the nuking of specs. Specs go from overpowered to barely viable (and in some cases, not viable at all), leaving many players disgruntled and resentful. This also leads to dishonestly when people are discussing their preferred specs: many players jump to passionate defence of their OP specs because they know a 'correction' from Trion is likely to result in a harsh nerf that will destroy the performance of that spec.

    To wrap up my long-winded babbling: less big-fixes that take forever and sometimes break a spec; more smaller changes that bring immediate relief and lead to a more gradual and natural correction of outliers. Please.
    i agree in general with your analysis but there is also the sad fact that players switch from one OP spec to the next. Doesn't matter if a spec is viable or not after a nerf it will never be as good as the next 2 button OP spec that surfaces.

  14. #14
    Plane Walker
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    468

    Default

    So to try to follow this thread, step by step:

    Horgyrm: Post on large versus small balance adjustments.
    Archcomponent: Post on the dev resource available for balance adjustments.
    Artewig: Post on the work required on balance adjustment types.
    Horgyrm: Response to archcomponent regarding resources available.
    Brasse: Post on balance being ongoing and taking time.
    Artewig: Post on the drawback of small balance adjustments.
    Nefelia: Post on feedback from the community and responsiveness of small adjustments.
    Horgyrm: Affirmation of Nefelia's post on reponsiveness.
    AVGVSTVS: Post on RANGE AND PERMASTEALTH ROGUES RANGED IGNORE PARAGON RANGED!
    Archcomponent: Post on maybe not derailing this thread.
    Xlavius: Joke that Trion does respond to nerfing clerics at least.
    Malackye: Buff Inqs. Which does check out.
    AVGVSTVS: Post on not denying RANGE AND PERMASTEALTH ROGUES RANGED SERIOUSLY!

    Again, I am not imagining things, right?
    !

  15. #15
    Plane Touched AVGVSTVS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    281

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by archcomponent View Post
    So to try to follow this thread, step by step:

    Horgyrm: Post on large versus small balance adjustments.
    Archcomponent: Post on the dev resource available for balance adjustments.
    Artewig: Post on the work required on balance adjustment types.
    Horgyrm: Response to archcomponent regarding resources available.
    Brasse: Post on balance being ongoing and taking time.
    Artewig: Post on the drawback of small balance adjustments.
    Nefelia: Post on feedback from the community and responsiveness of small adjustments.
    Horgyrm: Affirmation of Nefelia's post on reponsiveness.
    AVGVSTVS: Post on RANGE AND PERMASTEALTH ROGUES RANGED IGNORE PARAGON RANGED!
    Archcomponent: Post on maybe not derailing this thread.
    Xlavius: Joke that Trion does respond to nerfing clerics at least.
    Malackye: Buff Inqs. Which does check out.
    AVGVSTVS: Post on not denying RANGE AND PERMASTEALTH ROGUES RANGED SERIOUSLY!

    Again, I am not imagining things, right?
    I advocated a nerf on paragons range like 50 ******* times. Get my actual stance on the matter first before stalking all my posts. godamnit

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts