+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 9 of 9
Like Tree3Likes
  • 1 Post By Malackye
  • 1 Post By somerandomnamee
  • 1 Post By WardenCommander

Thread: The state of PVP

  1. #1
    Rift Chaser Malackye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    329

    Default The state of PVP

    I think I make some valid points here and would love the feedback or thoughts from others on the larger picture of PVP in Rift as a whole.

    I just want to summarize my view on some of the issues over the last couple years concerning pvp in the game. First, I want to mention that, in my view, the top issue regarding "quality" pvp/players is the fact that there is no longer low level pvp in game. Which means, if they level all the way to 65, they still have never set foot in a WF. They literally should be doing this since level 10. The reason that Trion took away some of the WFs was because it was just too difficult for the noobs to understand. Their mistake was thinking taking away more pvp was the answer. The real answer for that problem is and always will be, pvp at lower levels. Trion has put absolutely ZERO effort to maintain this.

    Secondly, everybody knows the balance issues. Is the issue with balance having to do with the actual development in the game? Does having this many souls just make it too difficult with their current resources? Just seems like over the last couple years, instead of actually fixing the pvp or souls, they give us the smoke and mirrors of "LEGENDARIES!" and "FRAGMENTS!". Just seems like a way to try and inject excitement without having any functionality. I dont need either if you just give me quality class balance. Perhaps they need to trim down on how many souls they have (which would suck) if they could give better quality to the rest?

    Third, they need to start giving more pvp dailies/weeklies. I would love to see some sort of achieves for actually participating in the WFs. Which could come in many fashions. The point being that it continually keeps the PVPers engaged with something to work on everyday while logging in. For people who only pvp for kills, create a WF where that literally is the goal for 5-10 minutes. No objectives except to slaughter the enemies repeatedly. Just sayin.....And bring back CQ.......

    Fourth, I know we get the "Rift was never to be a pvp game" alot. Who cares. It has some of the best pvp out of any mmo if done correctly. That might not have been their intentions, but thats the truth of the matter. I would love to see Trion actually embrace PVP. They should enjoy the fact that they have awesome PVP (as long as they do it properly). Its never going to get better unless they fundamentally change their minds on how they view PVP in their game. If they cant wrap their heads around this concept, then PVP will continue to die.

    Just some of my own opinions on things.........

  2. #2
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,485

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Malackye View Post
    there is no longer low level pvp in game. Which means, if they level all the way to 65, they still have never set foot in a WF. They literally should be doing this since level 10.
    I've said it many times, even made a thread about it in the suggestion section IIRC...
    Making IA give so much XP (while not boosting the XP for everything else) was probably the biggest mistake Trion made.

    People hitting 65 and having no clue how to play the game is just ONE of the issues it caused. It probably also made a lot of players quit because they think the game is dead. Everyday I see people asking stuff about "I've been in a queue for 3 hours and no pops, is the game dead?" then they are told that no one queues for low level stuff, there's pops at the endgame...

    But how many DON'T ask and just jump to the most apparent conclusion, and just quit the game?

    It's an old game and all, of course there isn't as many low level players as there used to be, but there would be enough to get queues to pop... If said players queues for this stuff. But why would a new player buy a 2nd role, make a tank spec, queue for a dungeon, wait for a healer, and get 25% of a level in 20 minutes, when you can half-afk half-press111111 in an IA and get a level in 5 minutes?

    IAs killed all low level content, made low level players who don't ask think the game is dead and no one queues for anything, and of course, it made people hit the endgame with absolutely NO CLUE on how to play the game/their characters, or lazyness to put any effort into it.

    When I queued for IA for rep&stuff, sometime I played support specs yet was almost always top 5 DPS... Sometime top 1. As support. And when I looked at people's gear to see what was the issue, those who were 70 usually all had eternal weapons. Pulling 50-100k DPS.
    Then these guys hit dungeons where (with a bit of effort, or drastically overgearing them) they managed to pull 150k or 200k dps, but their gear should allowed them to pull 400 or 500k, which they don't even come close to, because they don't know how to play. It works for dungeons because it's not hard to do enough DPS to clear, but at some point they hit a wall. A wall they can't overgear. Because if they need 500k dps for a raid, given their lack of skills they'd need 1.5m DPS gear for it, and this isn't happening. So they're stuck.

    The same happens with PVP, tho you just can't put numbers on it as easily.

    Bottom line : IA not only made the game looks absolutely dead at lower levels, it also made a lot of players terrible. The function create the organ. In IA there's no function, no need. In a 20 players I.A., you could do nothing (just autoattacks) and the adventure will clear about as fast as if you were pulling 500k. So there's never any pressure/incentive to learn to play/try hard.

    And when they hit 70 they don't magically become good players who try hard. They're the same people that the game told for 70 levels that they didn't need to do anything to succeed. And that's where we at, they hit dungeons and don'T pull half the DPS their gear allows, then they hit PVP and they lose 1v1 against a player of the same class/same gear yet they don't even make a dent in his health pool, and they blame random ********.


    Somehow I think they probably think IA was one of the greatest thing they've done for the game, but it was definitely the worst imho.

    At least doing just IA. They should've made PVP/Dungeons give at least as much (or more) XP than IA's. Then the people on a fast track to 70 would've queued this instead of going lemming mode in ia while watching movies. And as wins/completion would mean more XP, there would be an incentive to perform well.

    That's how the world works.
    Tell people they need 80/100 on a test, they'll be in their books all night long.
    Tell people they need 20/100, they'll go partying because why not?

    IA's tell people they need 1/100, and if they do 0/100 bah it's good enough just pretend you're doing something and we'll pass you anyway.

    And that's how you get absolute failures in PVP, and people don't pulling half the DPS they should in PVE.

    Trion, people don't get good when they hit the endgame. The leveling process is all there is, so that's what needs to be used to make them good (or at least not utterly trash) to be ready for endgame stuff when they hit it. IA's don't train them for that, because they're getting carried and make too much xp to really try to improve to make a difference.

    Hell, we don't even need to talk about endgame content; Some of them are not even able to kill SFP trash mobs. Let that sink in for a while. They can't kill solo trash mobs, but in just a few levels they'll try to get into dungeon groups, raid groups (and be denied if the leaders have any clue), or just queue PVP, in which we can't deny them.

    Use the game to teach them how to play. And this means, making other activities more appealing than IA's.

    There was always bad players of course, but it seems much worse since IAs are a thing. THE thing.

  3. #3
    Rift Master Ymirson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    605

    Default

    If someone levels in IAs and doesnt know how to play, why do you assume he wouldnt be a better player if had to do the levels traditionally? He (or she) would just have not leveled to max, most likely.

    On the other hand, useful human material will ask you how to improve after hitting 70.
    A witty saying proves nothing
    - Voltaire
    One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothin' can beat teamwork.
    - Edward Abbey

  4. #4
    Rift Chaser Malackye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    329

    Default

    Agree with everything you just said. Nicely put. Completely forgot that IAs and the inability to level through low level pvp is another blow to the game.

  5. #5
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,485

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ymirson View Post
    If someone levels in IAs and doesnt know how to play, why do you assume he wouldnt be a better player if had to do the levels traditionally? He (or she) would just have not leveled to max, most likely.

    If you stop feeding your kid when he turn 18 or 21, is he more likely to find a job to buy his own food, or to stop eating?

    Of course they would be a better player if they had to do the levels traditionally. As I've said in my other post, the function create the organ. In IA, improving your DPS from 50k to 100k means the fight will go 5% faster. Unless you actually time them, you will not even notice.

    If you fight something solo, improving your DPS from 50k to 100k means the fight will go 50% faster. THIS, you notice.

    If you PVP, having your DPS go from 50k to 100k means the fight will go MORE than 50% fasster ( because of heals negating a lesser part of your DPS), and also that sometime you'll survive them when you would've died without that improvement.

    People wouldn't give up because "there's no IA", or "other stuff pays more XP"... They don't quit the 99% of the games out there that don't have IA's, and people played Rift before IA were even a thing, so I'm not sure what you're getting that from.

    People play IA's because that's an extremely efficient way to level. If other activities (dungeons, pvp) were extremely efficient, they would play that as well, and these activities actually make people want to improve. Because it's more fun to beat people up, than getting beat up. So you make better builds, you learn to play them, and so on. But in IA? Your contribution (especially, as we're talking about bad players here) is insignificant.

    Increasing your dps by just 10% for solo play or PVP makes a bigger difference than increasing it by 100% for IA's. So you have an incentive there, but not much in IA. Hence people not trying, hence people not improving. I mean just queue an IA right now, inspect the 70 people and count the average DPS of people with eternal weapons. I'd be surprised if it's above 200k. If you do 200k in IA you're almost always among the top DPS'ers, even if there's 10-15 lvl 70 in the raid. Some are just bad and some just don't try, but the point is the same, no one cares.

    And it's even worse with the low level guys who know they can't do as much as those high level peeps with legendary skills and what no, so less incentive to try because they will make even less difference.

  6. #6
    Rift Master Ymirson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    605

    Default

    People played like brainless monkeys way before IAs were a thing. They reinforce bad behavioral structures, they dont create them. Unless you want to say that you never met an idiot playing semi AFK, "one or less button" spec in any dungeon or quest or invasion before IAs.
    Last edited by Ymirson; 06-14-2017 at 02:59 AM.
    A witty saying proves nothing
    - Voltaire
    One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothin' can beat teamwork.
    - Edward Abbey

  7. #7
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,485

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ymirson View Post
    People played like brainless monkeys way before IAs were a thing. They reinforce bad behavioral structures, they dont create them. Unless you want to say that you never met an idiot playing semi AFK, "one or less button" spec in any dungeon or quest or invasion before IAs.
    Course not, but that's the difference between 1 guy doing it and a hundred guys doing it.
    IA's made it the standard to be lazy/sub par player because effort/skill/efficiency doesn't change much.

  8. #8
    Rift Master Ymirson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    605

    Default

    No, they were lazy before IAs, you just didnt meet them. IAs lets you meet, or at least see, a muc bigger part of the population then normal quests and instances. The general trend surely gravitates towards less time and brain commiting tasks but that created IAs, not the other way around.

    In the end, you just pick the good ones for your guild/raid and ignore the sad rest.
    A witty saying proves nothing
    - Voltaire
    One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothin' can beat teamwork.
    - Edward Abbey

  9. #9
    Soulwalker
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    12

    Default

    LOL Somerandomnames are you my long lost brother or something?!?!

    I agree/think same thing 100% what you wrote and just to add the fact that IAs make player base that got used to getting EVERYTHING served on the plate, and when they hit max lvl they quit in week or two cuz you acually have to work for your gear.
    Not even to start about getting used to beeing carried by better players instead of trying to become good yourself witch reflects hugely in PVP where those same ppl who lvled in IA get in WFs and expect to be carried by good players while not even trying to help, and if they see some good good players in enemy team they just camp in base and bith on chat how doomes they are instead of trying to do ..well .. anything.This problem is even bigger cuz we don't have votekick like before.

    They MUST make low lvl content valid again cuz that's the only way to actually learn to play your char and it's calling.In low lvl playing content where you need to actually be good enough to finish it while getting abilities slowly 1 by 1 helps players to really learn their builds and mechanics of souls while in IA you just lvl - -- auto fill ---- lvl --- auto fill (if you don't use presets which make even worst players because of self fill ) then smash new pretty pictures you get and see some numbers on the screen.
    I tried to discuss about IA few times on public chat in game but gave up because there you always have few awesome players who defend IAs with their last breath and say how they learned to play on IA and then you see them and in WF doing 1/3 of your dps in same gear with same specs + running around like headless flies and getting farmed withouth even trying to do objectives atleast if they obviously can't dps.
    There will ofc be plaers who will start with ,, Thats why you start to play in 65 and learn to play pvp till you get to 70 " which is more sad or funny?
    I see on pvp same ppl i saw 1.. 2 yrs ago and they play on absolute same lvl as they did and still don't have a clue what to do while back in SL Rift when i started to play when we pvpers were lvling in content we play game for, ppl actually learned to play cuz they get the picture that they need to do this and that in order to win.Main reason we learned to play is because we knew that if we lose we won't get reward and will lvl slower thats why everyone did they best, yeah sure 10-19 ppl sucked,20-29 ppl sucked, **** it even 30-39 ppl sucked but 40+ lvl pvp was most fun and enjoyable experience that i didn't have since 3.0.

    IA is good idea done badly(like frags).It sould have been place where ppl learn to play in raid enviroment but they made it so damn easy and without of consequences,They should remove IA exp gain for the sake of the player base and make it's juts practice grounds with rewards like gear and currencies and also make it harder.
    Ppl need to learn to play, in IAs they don't even ever bother with mechanics cuz common logic of IA players is:
    1. Dieing .. pff what ever i just hit respawn button and do it all over again and soul mending ... **** it i pick 2-3 gray items and pay for it.
    2. Interrupt ... WTF IS THAT!?!?! .. can you eat it?
    3. Look red field i will just stand there cuz it's pretty .. WOOOOOT i died!!! healer you bastard you have no clue to heal!!!
    4. Gear .. why the **** i need that i make same DPS/HPS with any gear cuz i'm mentored
    5. Rotation ... click button 1 and .. and .. wait for it .. click same button again .. BOOOM!!!

    Ymirson asked why would you thing playing other content will make any difference for bad players.LOL mate i guess you don't even try to play with new players, i play old content all the time cuz i wanna support players who chose different path and want to actually learn/expirience game, and what i noticed is that most of them like to learn and ask what to do where and even ask what specs to use and why to use them (more importantly).While in IAs you have only silence and face rolling on keyboard(which i understand cuz IA is for that lvl of playing skill).

    But i don't think Trion will do anything about this cuz they don't want to do their job and reworking old content thakes time and effort so it's easier to stuff ppl in one instance from 1-max lvl so they don't see other content and devs can just make end game while pretending they don't hear us players who love game and wanna make it awesome game as it was when we started.(also it's funny how they brag about how many players returned to game and how many players play game and all of us who played in SL and before remember very well that each shard had population(or even more) like loggin shards today individually)

    RETURN OTHER LOW LVL CONTENT plz
    [sorry for my bad English i wrote best as i could with help of google translate xD]

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts