+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 20
Like Tree7Likes

Thread: Whitefall Steppes Turtling

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    9

    Default Whitefall Steppes Turtling

    Not to long ago Whitefall Steppes had a change to balance the Warfront against one team holding one Stormstone until one minute before the Warfront ends, the team holding the Stormstone would turn in the Stormstone just before the Warfront ends. This is called "Turtiling". The change that was supposed to fix this was that Stormstones would continue to spawn over time to give the non-Turtling team a chance to pick up and turn in a Stormstone. This did not fix the problem.

    Here is the current result:

    http://i.imgur.com/RKBAP9J.png

    Note: A team only needs to turn in 3 Stormstones to win. The Turtiling team is clearly holding 5 Storm stones to prolong the Warfront.

    Problem: When the Turtiling team over powers the non-Turtiling team in heals, they can practically do what they want with the Stormstones.

    Solution 1: Carriers need to start taking damage. (similar to The Black Garden, The Ghar Station Eyn or Library of Runemasters). A good time limit before you start taking damage would be how ever long it takes a player to run from one base to the other with no run speed.

    Solution 2: Retire Whitefall Steppes with Port Scion as this is apparently the cost effective solution.
    Last edited by arivixen; 06-08-2017 at 01:03 PM.

  2. #2
    Rift Chaser Malackye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    329

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by arivixen View Post
    Not to long ago Whitefall Steppes had a change to balance the Warfront against one team holding one Stormstone until one minute before the Warfront ends, the team holding the Stormstone would turn in the Stormstone just before the Warfront ends. This is called "Turtiling". The change that was supposed to fix this was that Stormstones would continue to spawn over time to give the non-Turtling team a chance to pick up and turn in a Stormstone. This did not fix the problem.

    Here is the current result:

    http://i.imgur.com/RKBAP9J.png

    Note: A team only needs to turn in 3 Stormstones to win. The Turtiling team is clearly holding 5 Storm stones to prolong the Warfront.

    Problem: When the Turtiling team over powers the non-Turtiling team in heals, they can practically do what they want with the Stormstones.

    Solution 1: Carriers need to start taking damage. (similar to The Black Garden, The Ghar Station Eyn or Library of Runemasters). A good time limit before you start taking damage would be how ever long it takes a player to run from one base to the other with no run speed.

    Solution 2: Retire Whitefall Steppes with Port Scion as this is apparently the cost effective solution.
    I too hate the turtling. Definitely agree that the carrier should start taking damage.....

  3. #3
    Rift Chaser Bannj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    362

    Default

    I wish to disagree with any notion of disabling this map, one that many would agree is a very fun map.

    Lets address the screenshot and what has happened.

    The image you provide is quite common in WFS. Not because a team is turtling with 5 stones and prolonging the match. It is because they held 3 til the end of the match and then picked up last two because the defiant team had likely resigned to the loss and wasn't trying to pick them up. These last 2 stones are after all irrelevant at this point.

    By the time the last two stones spawn in WFS, the timer is essentially up in this "turtle" situation. At maximum there might be 2.5 minutes left as shown in your screenshot, but usually less than 2:00 in this situation. There is nothing to prolong. The match is over. It is likely that the 3 main stone holders were already running back to their base to turn in.

    The problem is not with this map but with the matchmaker and a low population. You were overmatched. If people are being rude and you think they are prolonging the game just stay in your graveyard, deny them favor and they will end it, or else they are the fools for wasting their own time.

    Your idea of placing a dot on stone holders does have merit but may be infeasible for this map. I encourage you to be critical of maps and offer suggested improvements but would discourage you from ever suggesting a map be disabled. There will likely be no new PvP content and we need to protect that which remains to us.
    Bajn | Levent | Pajn
    Warlock Life

  4. #4
    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    3,873

    Default

    I don't think they should take damage. I think there should be a timer. If you don't turn it in after x minutes, you drop it and it returns to spawn. If you get killed or if you drop it, the timer does not reset. The only way for the timer to reset is for it to expire. That would make it much more interesting than having them take damage.
    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse
    We are absolutely a service industry and you're only as good as your last contact with the customer.

  5. #5
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    2,357

    Default

    I have never seen a team holding on to five stones. It is unnecessary to the victory and makes no strategic sense. If a team is holding three or more stones and intentionally not turning them in, then they are farming, not turtling.

    Personally, I hate farming. I consider it extremely poor sportsmanship and refuse to engage in it.

    That said, I don't think it is necessary to change the mechanics of Whitefall Steppes in order to combat a form of farming that is rare enough that I have yet to witness it.

    If a team is being obviously farmed, then the proper solution is to stay in spawn and deny them the kills. Once they realize that their efforts are in vain, then they will cap and move on to pollute the next WF.

  6. #6
    Soulwalker Luella's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bannj View Post
    The image you provide is quite common in WFS. Not because a team is turtling with 5 stones and prolonging the match. It is because they held 3 til the end of the match and then picked up last two because the defiant team had likely resigned to the loss and wasn't trying to pick them up. These last 2 stones are after all irrelevant at this point.

    By the time the last two stones spawn in WFS, the timer is essentially up in this "turtle" situation. At maximum there might be 2.5 minutes left as shown in your screenshot, but usually less than 2:00 in this situation. There is nothing to prolong. The match is over. It is likely that the 3 main stone holders were already running back to their base to turn in.
    I was there and this is exactly what happened There was no turtling with 5 stones. Btw its an NA specific thingy. On EU there is no turtling. But well, there is not really good pvp anymore either

  7. #7
    Soulwalker
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nefelia View Post
    If a team is being obviously farmed, then the proper solution is to stay in spawn and deny them the kills. Once they realize that their efforts are in vain, then they will cap and move on to pollute the next WF.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bannj View Post
    If people are being rude and you think they are prolonging the game just stay in your graveyard, deny them favor and they will end it, or else they are the fools for wasting their own time.
    The solution is to "stay in your graveyard" and pretty much not play the warfront? I guarantee Trion did not intended to create a Warfront where sometimes the solution is to sit in spawn and not play the Warfront. That's not a solution. You don't create software with the understanding that sometimes the best way to use it is to not use it.
    Last edited by arivixen; 06-09-2017 at 05:54 AM. Reason: Added another quote of a non-solution to the problem

  8. #8
    Soulwalker
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Artewig View Post
    I don't think they should take damage. I think there should be a timer. If you don't turn it in after x minutes, you drop it and it returns to spawn. If you get killed or if you drop it, the timer does not reset. The only way for the timer to reset is for it to expire. That would make it much more interesting than having them take damage.
    This is good alternative solution to the problem as well.

  9. #9
    Rift Chaser Malackye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    329

    Default

    Dont care if its damage or timer, but something definitely needs to be done.

  10. #10
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,485

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Artewig View Post
    I don't think they should take damage. I think there should be a timer. If you don't turn it in after x minutes, you drop it and it returns to spawn. If you get killed or if you drop it, the timer does not reset. The only way for the timer to reset is for it to expire. That would make it much more interesting than having them take damage.
    A timer would work better than damage.
    Thing is, capping the stone is an incredibly bad move from the holding team's perspective; It gives the other teams more options to win, and achieve nothing for themselves.

    In steamroll games where the holding team is sure to win, I don't think they'll even care about the damage. They would just hold til they drop. It's not rare to see extremely long holds in BG during steamrolls games. The same would happen here, because capping them just invite the tank/healer thieves in for no benefit for your team, and they might pull it off even if they're the worst team, as it happened countless times when people cap them.

    If you're playing optimally, it'd be better to just have 1 stone holder die every 2 minutes. So it wouldn't really work unless the teams are playing sub-optimal, but if they were, we wouldn't have this turtling problem.

    A timer tho, well there's no work around. You either cap the stone, or it returns so might as well not pick it up at all. Well technically I guess there's a slight advantage to gain by picking up a stone just to prevent the enemy team from picking it up for a couple minutes, but it's not that much. If they don't control middle they would not have picked it up, and if they do control middle, then they'll pick up because you're pushed back and soon as you drop they'll get it.

    People capping the stones would make for better games if players are smart enough. Which they never are of course, they either keep 5 guys at base and then you lose the game, or they don't keep anyone at base and don't react to any thieves until they're 20 feets from the mid and they have 4 healers on their ***.

    But (hopefully) with time people would learn how to play it better, and the overall map would be improved, because forcing caps gives the losing team a chance to come back; With more strategic options (thieves) and sometime by the threat of thieves forcing the enemy team to keep one or 2 guys at base, so they're playing outnumbered by 1 or 2 at mid, giving the bad team a better chance at grabbing the next stones.

    Without things like that, it's usually a roll from start to finish, because if you roll them for the first stone, it's unlikely they'll roll you back for the 2nd/3rd, unless the teams changed.

  11. #11
    Plane Touched thunder 1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    265

    Default My 2 cents

    Quote Originally Posted by somerandomnamee View Post
    A timer would work better than damage.
    Thing is, capping the stone is an incredibly bad move from the holding team's perspective; It gives the other teams more options to win, and achieve nothing for themselves.
    I completely agree that it is usually a very bad move to cap the stone. However as it is, I truly hate the situation that develops no matter which side I am on.

    So how to go about it to "force" a cap? A respawn timer would work best I believe over damage but I would suggest a twist. Have the stone respawn closer to the other teams base, lets say for example ,15 meters. Yes the same team could pick it up again and hold and the next respawn would go another 15 meters closer from the last respawn. Eventually the stone would be inside the enemies team base, which would give them an obvious advantage to get the stone. The timer length and re-spawn points are obviously open for debate.

    The next question would be in this situation, do you pick up the stone if you win the first zerg fight? If you do pick it up do you cap? I think some pretty neat strategies and counter strategies would develop from the choices people would have.

    This situation might also suppress spawn camping as a side effect. If you are picking up the stone or stones and holding. They might just disappear on you and be very close to the enemy base. If you control the middle and not picking up the stones you would have to spread across several points giving the other team a chance to push hard on a particular side.

    If you push into enemy base without the stones leaving them at mid then who is protecting them from stealthed thieves? Does half your team push and the other half hold mid? The base pushers will probably wipe to to overwhelming forces re-spawning.

    If you cap the stones you are either forced to keep a couple of players to protect from thieves or tanks trying to steal, this weakens your side at spawn points and the enemy team can take advantage on a double spawn. The dynamic of the war-front would certainly change from what we have now.

    My 2 cents,

    Thunder
    Last edited by thunder 1; 06-12-2017 at 02:45 AM.

  12. #12
    Rift Chaser Bannj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    362

    Default

    A tractor beam begins to pull the holder to his turnin point.
    Bajn | Levent | Pajn
    Warlock Life

  13. #13
    Champion of Telara Stihl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    1,277

    Default

    The problem isn't the flag or the players, it's the game mode.Generally there are two types of capture the flag (ctf) game modes; one flag and two flag.

    There are two popular ways to play one flag ctf:
    • Attack and defense: Typically played in rounds, the only flag is placed in the defenders base to be captured by the attacking team. Win conditions vary but typically first to x round victories win.
    • Neutral spawn: The flag spawns in a neutral location, returning the flag to your base scores a point. First to x points win.

    The primary way to play two flag is seen in Blighted Antechamber. There is a flag in each teams base which must be taken by the enemy team and returned to their base. Maintaining ownership of your own flag is a common requirement but not all game types require this.

    Originally Whitefall Steps was set up as two flag ctf. There were no neutral stone spawns and each base had a stone, which lead to severe turtling after 1 team managed to capture the first stone.

    Whitefall: Escalation (the current game mode) is an amalgam of the two game types I've never seen anywhere else and was originally a special "weekend variation" of the warfront that attempted to address the turtling issue.

    The issue is the stones function as neutral spawn one flag ctf, but the bases still function as the original two flag setup. A "captured flag" only scores you a "pseudo point" as captured flags can be stolen by the enemy a la conventional two flag ctf rules.

    A stone carrier taking the stone back to their base actually puts their team at a disadvantage, as they create a second point of conflict. If they leave the stone in base undefended it can be stolen, if they leave defenders behind they are more likely to lose the fight over mid and the stone spawn point.

    If anything Whitefall should be made into a true 1 flag game mode where stones can no longer be stolen from a base after they have been captured. You can never blame the players for their playstyle when it is shaped by the rule set. Interestingly enough that mantra applies to stuff like Bronze Tomb as well. I may hate stacking tanks and heals on the last point, but the warfront is setup as such that is the best strategy.
    Last edited by Stihl; 06-11-2017 at 11:53 PM.
    I'm ya boss baby, crank it like a chainsaw
    Rogue Moses of <Coriolis>
    "Everyone do their crafting dailies today?"
    Feed our Turtles, upload your combat logs!

  14. #14
    Rift Master Ymirson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    605

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stihl View Post
    The problem isn't the flag or the players, it's the game mode..
    Please, dont pollute PvP with reasoning. Many players might get nasty headaches.
    A witty saying proves nothing
    - Voltaire
    One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothin' can beat teamwork.
    - Edward Abbey

  15. #15
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    2,357

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by arivixen View Post
    The solution is to "stay in your graveyard" and pretty much not play the warfront? I guarantee Trion did not intended to create a Warfront where sometimes the solution is to sit in spawn and not play the Warfront. That's not a solution. You don't create software with the understanding that sometimes the best way to use it is to not use it.
    Do you have a better solution to being farmed? Well, aside from Trion improving the match-making system, that is.

    The fact remains that there is no farming problem in Whitefall. You mistook a team stealing stones (or picking up the final spawn) as a team farming, and are now offering solutions that would make gameplay in Whitefall worse than it currently is.

    The current game play is fine. The current top strat is to grab and hold until the third stone is secure, and that is more than dynamic enough to allow the match to go back and forth - assuming the disadvantaged team makes an effort to adjust starts and roles accordingly. I have three recent videos on my Youtube channel documenting just such an even, and plenty more such videos that never made it out of the editing room.

    I wouldn't oppose a return to the old Whitefall Steppes play style, but the current experience makes for some pretty good game play as well.
    Last edited by Nefelia; 06-12-2017 at 07:58 AM.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts