+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 108
Like Tree37Likes

  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Why use Elo system in warfronts

  1.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #16
    Rift Team Ocho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    1,933

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thelarry View Post
    How is it that these systems were working independently when only one of them (the weighted one) was used to determine matches? Just trying to understand how a weighted matchmaking system produced viable data for the unweighted one
    So ELO isn't reliant on balanced matchmaking, imbalanced matchmaking still provides the right data with a large enough data set. As long as matches are being played, it can generate an accurate score over time.

    Quote Originally Posted by McChaffe View Post
    RIFT needs WN8 (better known as an efficiency rating) for RIFT pvp.

    Elo doesn't determine individual player skill. It just shows that some people will get carried through games to better elo.
    WN8 is an interesting one. If you note games where that data is available, people with high WN8 ratings usually have pretty similarly high win percentages. Even a small deviation (more than say 1%) away from 50% is pretty significant over time. The rare outlier is a person with great mechanical skills at the game, but poor situational awareness (or just a bad team player). These people tend not to win matches, which makes them effectively bad at winning the game, so ELO is more accurate in that sense.

    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.
    Last edited by Ocho; 07-05-2016 at 12:40 PM.

  2.   This is the last Rift Team post in this thread.   #17
    Rift Team Keyens's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    127

    Default

    I'm going to elaborate on Ocho's points separately (specifically with how they apply in Rift).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    So ELO isn't reliant on balanced matchmaking, imbalanced matchmaking still provides the right data with a large enough data set. As long as matches are being played, it can generate an accurate score over time.
    To elaborate on this, ELO operates on expected outcomes. Matchmaking is the process of trying to get those outcomes as close to 50/50 as possible. However in cases that isn't possible, ELO shifts are adjusted by your expected outcome. Lets use a chess example for a moment. Presume for the moment you are playing against a Grandmaster. When you lose a game in this case your ELO says it should basically be not affected negatively because the odds of you winning the game are so small. The same is true for their ELO going up. It should barely move because they are expected to win that game in the vast majority of cases. If you were to win however, your 'certainty' (which is a statistic that is tracked that roughly equates to "is this player as skilled as ELO implies they are") would be shaken and the system would move your ELO more drastically to attempt to correct for what is generally perceived as a change in skill. This is also true in even matchups. If you start winning more often than 50/50 (lets say 60/40) when the matching says you should be 50/50, your ELO will start to move more quickly as the system adjusts to your new skill level. Remember that the goal of ELO *on its own* is not to make matches. It is to project the expected outcome of any given match. Using this data, the matchmaker attempts to make balanced matches. There are various dials we can turn here and many different variables that impact match quality, so beyond that it would be a little more complicated than I want to go into here. Suffice it to say ELO is a pretty solid indicator of expected match outcome for any given matchup. This does not mean however that all of your matches will be even, because that is gated by lots of things beyond the matchmakers control such as available queue population and microvariance in matchup (such as you playing something that counters someone of higher skill, giving you an edge you wouldn't normally have).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    WN8 is an interesting one. If you note games where that data is available, people with high WN8 ratings usually have pretty similarly high win percentages. Even a small deviation (more than say 1%) away from 50% is pretty significant over time. The rare outlier is a person with great mechanical skills at the game, but poor situational awareness (or just a bad team player). These people tend not to win matches, which makes them effectively bad at winning the game, so ELO is more accurate in that sense.

    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.
    WN8 is interesting as Ocho noted, but it has a major flaw. The less the individual game types favor tracked stats the less accurate it is, and the more variant gametypes any one game serves, the less accurate it is. This is a double whammy in Rift because not all of our gametypes can be well represented in tracked stats (for example a player who drives off a couple attackers in Domination maps but doesn't score kills is doing good work, but would score poorly), and WN8 struggles to accurately portray skill in various gametypes (ELO somewhat suffers from this as well because you can be better at one over another, but as a whole is far less susceptible to it). There are ways to combat this (for example you could get a rating for every unique game type that exists, but this has drawbacks too).


    Long and short of all this for those who'd like to skip the lecture is that ELO is a really effective system for predicting match outcome, which is all it is designed to do. There are other ways to improve match quality, but many of them have risks or might prove to worsen the matches for outlier players. As a general rule, improvements to systems that influence player behavior and perception will likely have a bigger impact that any change we could make to ELO and matchmaking.

  3. #18
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    7,153

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    The question becomes how much should the Matchmaker weight match times compared with potentially lopsided matches. Is it more fun to be waiting longer for matches and have them be more even, or is it better to play more even though there will be occasional mismatches. We try to strike a balance here, because drifting too far in either direction isn't as much fun.
    I think the average undergeared pug who's just been spanked by the same overgeared premade for three matches in a row might be willing to wait a little longer between matches if it results in a more balanced game.

    P.S. pls ban that player who will not be named who spams the mark removing macro - it took me three matches to get him marked afk and kicked out of warfronts yesterday, only for him to jump on an alt and continue with his cancerous behaviour.

    P.P.S we really need a better anti-afk system. even just reducing the number of players needed to mark an afker might help.

  4. #19
    Ascendant butkus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    2,002

    Default

    just give us back pvp and pve gear that in turn would get rid of 75% of the players in wfs that dont want to be there = problem solved.
    Last edited by butkus; 07-05-2016 at 02:40 PM.
    I did not invent Warladin I perfected it!
    rifts #1 warlord!
    rifts #1 pull tank!
    Your weakness builds me!
    Butkus@seastone

  5. #20
    Champion of Telara McChaffe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    1,343

    Default

    I'd still like to see WN8 somewhere in RIFT since it would be a good tool for helping players track how efficient they are. It wouldn't even have to affect matchmaking. It would just be a much better display stat than Elo since it directly tells you if you're doing well at your role or not.
    Last edited by McChaffe; 07-05-2016 at 02:48 PM.
    Everything after Storm Legion was a mistake. ()

  6. #21
    Ascendant Rgizil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    2,160

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    I think the average undergeared pug who's just been spanked by the same overgeared premade for three matches in a row might be willing to wait a little longer between matches if it results in a more balanced game.

    P.S. pls ban that player who will not be named who spams the mark removing macro - it took me three matches to get him marked afk and kicked out of warfronts yesterday, only for him to jump on an alt and continue with his cancerous behaviour.

    P.P.S we really need a better anti-afk system. even just reducing the number of players needed to mark an afker might help.
    a better afk system would be wonderful
    RGI@Deepwood --- <-Hello Kitty->
    [A Stick]
    King of Conquest

  7. #22
    Champion Fallse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    526

    Default Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    I think the average undergeared pug who's just been spanked by the same overgeared premade for three matches in a row might be willing to wait a little longer between matches if it results in a more balanced game.

    P.S. pls ban that player who will not be named who spams the mark removing macro - it took me three matches to get him marked afk and kicked out of warfronts yesterday, only for him to jump on an alt and continue with his cancerous behaviour.

    P.P.S we really need a better anti-afk system. even just reducing the number of players needed to mark an afker might help.
    Can we please get an answer to this ... there are a few .. very few players that are a blight on pvp as it is .... we can not teach people how to be better when 1/10th of the team is actively obstructing and working against the team they are on .. we need a means to remove these players.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos
    I'm not against you enjoying raids. I'm not against you enjoying pvp.
    I'm not against you having a fancy pair of pants from raiding.
    I am against imbalance in pvp. Your fancy raiding pants are unbalancing pvp.
    Fallse Sempper Infidus Carpenoctum Mayhhem

  8. #23
    Plane Walker
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    404

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jilli View Post
    People with extremely low elo are normally ones usually sitting in base at the first sign of things looking hard and ***** at people for being bad.


    I am sitting,at 188 ELO with a 44ish% win ratio with about 2,500 war fronts factoring into the calculation.
    #endthedoublestandards

  9. #24
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    7,153

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by McChaffe View Post
    I'd still like to see WN8 somewhere in RIFT since it would be a good tool for helping players track how efficient they are. It wouldn't even have to affect matchmaking. It would just be a much better display stat than Elo since it directly tells you if you're doing well at your role or not.
    we don't need WN8 to tell us that. just get on a losing team and the ragers will provide all the feedback you need.

  10. #25
    Champion of Telara McChaffe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    1,343

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    we don't need WN8 to tell us that. just get on a losing team and the ragers will provide all the feedback you need.
    So much for having a stat that actually means something then.
    Everything after Storm Legion was a mistake. ()

  11. #26
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    7,153

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by McChaffe View Post
    So much for having a stat that actually means something then.
    such a stat wont mean a thing when your teams healers are a 65k hp chloro with no essences/seal/earrings and a cancerous troll sitting just outside the spawn repeatedly clearing all the marks you put on the enemy.

    imo pvp has bigger issues than matchmaking/elo that would provide an improved experience if they were addressed.

    improved bolstering/narrow the gear gap - bolster empty slots, provide additional stat boosts to unruned/undream orbed gear.
    better anti afk measures.
    underdog bonuses - if elo says your team is going to lose anyway, you should get something for your suffering. give players a reason to keep fighting against the odds.
    pvp events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  12. #27
    Champion of Telara McChaffe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    1,343

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    such a stat wont mean a thing when your teams healers are a 65k hp chloro with no essences/seal/earrings and a cancerous troll sitting just outside the spawn repeatedly clearing all the marks you put on the enemy.

    imo pvp has bigger issues than matchmaking/elo that would provide an improved experience if they were addressed.

    improved bolstering/narrow the gear gap - bolster empty slots, provide additional stat boosts to unruned/undream orbed gear.
    better anti afk measures.
    underdog bonuses - if elo says your team is going to lose anyway, you should get something for your suffering. give players a reason to keep fighting against the odds.
    pvp events.
    Yeah, which all needs to be addressed, but that's not what this thread is about.
    Everything after Storm Legion was a mistake. ()

  13. #28
    Rift Chaser
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    369

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    such a stat wont mean a thing when your teams healers are a 65k hp chloro with no essences/seal/earrings and a cancerous troll sitting just outside the spawn repeatedly clearing all the marks you put on the enemy.

    imo pvp has bigger issues than matchmaking/elo that would provide an improved experience if they were addressed.

    improved bolstering/narrow the gear gap - bolster empty slots, provide additional stat boosts to unruned/undream orbed gear.
    better anti afk measures.
    underdog bonuses - if elo says your team is going to lose anyway, you should get something for your suffering. give players a reason to keep fighting against the odds.
    pvp events.
    Unbelievable, but I agree 100% with what you just said Kronos v.

  14. #29
    Rift Chaser qUiXui's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    320

    Default

    Like the OP suspected, there are several things wrong and/or falsly implemented with matchmaking.

    While ELO could be useful if Rift, as i think it once did, were to use brackets based on it like major and minor leagues in sports, pitching similarly skilled players against each other. The problem is, Rifts playerbase has shrunk way too much for a system like that to be feasable.

    The way it works now, ELO simply is not a viable system for matchmaking with constantly changing teams. As Keyens confirmed the system is geared towards a 50% win chance, which is a problem right there. In soccer you dont expect a team with Ronaldo or Messi to have a 50% win chance against a team with random players, and it shouldnt. Same goes for Rift - a team with a highly skilled player shouldnt have a 50% chance to win, its chance should be higher. What the system now does is - if you're a good player and your ELO starts reflecting that, it will try to find bigger and better idiots to compensate for that fact, gravitating your winrate and ELO towards that 50% and thus effectively working against itself.

    Another error made by Trion is that it calculates ELO win/loss amount based on your personal ELO, rather than on your groups ELO, mixing apples and oranges. As Keyens correctly stated ELO is based on win expectancy chance, but since the system matches groups to give a 50% win expectancy chance (or whatever other value it can achieve, but the same chance for the whole group), all group members ELO should change by the same amount - which it doesnt. If you're high ELO you win much less and lose a lot more than that potato the system placed in your group, even though your win chance was the same. You cant to that either, because then you would end up with huge ELO numbers on good players ofc not reflecting their skill: the problem is mixing group win chance - the proverbial orange - and personal ELO reflecting skill and your proverbial apple.

    So, bottom line is, if you're a good player you have to fight against the matchmaking system just as mutch as against other players (and do a lot of waiting in the process). If you want to achieve a win rate appropriate for your skill, you have to make a premade and hope for small maps (a 5 man premade for garden means at least 50% good players, for Port Scion only 25%), a playerbase small enough for the system not being able to find enough potatos to place in your group, and a lot of patience, because the higher your ELO, the longer the system will want to play farmer digging for those potatos.

    TLDR: System is broken, play as a premade.
    Last edited by qUiXui; 07-05-2016 at 11:22 PM.
    Axynia - Pagefault - Segfault - Xinira
    <Transcendent>
    Inactive

  15. #30
    Champion Fallse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    526

    Default Yep

    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    such a stat wont mean a thing when your teams healers are a 65k hp chloro with no essences/seal/earrings and a cancerous troll sitting just outside the spawn repeatedly clearing all the marks you put on the enemy.

    imo pvp has bigger issues than matchmaking/elo that would provide an improved experience if they were addressed.

    improved bolstering/narrow the gear gap - bolster empty slots, provide additional stat boosts to unruned/undream orbed gear.
    better anti afk measures.
    underdog bonuses - if elo says your team is going to lose anyway, you should get something for your suffering. give players a reason to keep fighting against the odds.
    pvp events.
    Pretty much all that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos
    I'm not against you enjoying raids. I'm not against you enjoying pvp.
    I'm not against you having a fancy pair of pants from raiding.
    I am against imbalance in pvp. Your fancy raiding pants are unbalancing pvp.
    Fallse Sempper Infidus Carpenoctum Mayhhem

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts