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Thread: Healers placement in losing matches.

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    Ascendant Jeremiahcp's Avatar
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    Default Healers placement in losing matches.

    I couldn't find the dev respond about it, but as I understand it, in addition to ELO Trion also tries to place DPS and Healers evenly on each side. So what ends up happening is, since I heal, I get placed on losing teams of 12 - 15 DPSer, because out off that many people not one of them cares enough about winning to go heals. It is ridiculous, I am placed into a match that is already underway, already losing, simply because not even one out of 15 people was willing to heal. That tells me, they don't care about winning.

    If you get a group of nothing but DPSers and they lose because of it, well they deserve to lose, as if out of an entire WF grp, none of them are willing to heal, then that is them playing poorly. Don't throw healers into their grp simply because they don't care enough to win.

    Don't que healers differently, as you are not treating your clientele equally. Healers and DPSer should be qued into WFs on the same system. Don't que healers with a group of people that care so little about the match that none of them are willing to go heal, because that team has already lost and a one healer will not change that. You are sticking me with a team that does not care about winning.
    Last edited by Jeremiahcp; 03-28-2016 at 08:21 AM.

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    Rift Master EverydayAnomaly's Avatar
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    There has to be something to this. Most of the time it's not even worth me trying to que as DPS. The system just seems to assume i am automatically healing (I do play heals a lot) but when i drop in as DPS there are few if any healers to be found on my team.

    The only way i have found to get around this is que a 5 man and talk a couple of them into healing so i can DPS. Did two matches last Thursday like that. Most fun I've had in a while.
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    Ascendant Jeremiahcp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EverydayAnomaly View Post
    There has to be something to this. Most of the time it's not even worth me trying to que as DPS. The system just seems to assume i am automatically healing (I do play heals a lot) but when i drop in as DPS there are few if any healers to be found on my team.

    The only way i have found to get around this is que a 5 man and talk a couple of them into healing so i can DPS. Did two matches last Thursday like that. Most fun I've had in a while.
    You have been tagged by the system as a healer, so that when you are not healing the game still reads you as a healer, and ques you in as a healer.

    Trion is trying to control the que, and they are not doing a good job at it.

    The best way to give everyone an equal gaming experience is to have random pug ques, and let the numbers even out. Some times players will have wining streaks, and sometimes they will have losing streaks, sometimes they will have too many healers,and sometimes not enough healers, but given enough time, the numbers will average out, and everyone will have the same gaming experience in the WFs.
    Last edited by Jeremiahcp; 03-28-2016 at 09:25 AM.

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    Shadowlander Hinatasama's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EverydayAnomaly View Post
    There has to be something to this. Most of the time it's not even worth me trying to que as DPS. The system just seems to assume i am automatically healing (I do play heals a lot) but when i drop in as DPS there are few if any healers to be found on my team.

    The only way i have found to get around this is que a 5 man and talk a couple of them into healing so i can DPS. Did two matches last Thursday like that. Most fun I've had in a while.
    I totally agree, it's hard to go Dps, when system put you as default healer, if you do switch, your team loss healer in compare to your opponent.
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    Plane Walker
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    I had the feeling that this happens, switching between DPS and healing, but I'll be able to say a little more definitively once I look at the results from consecutive warfronts I've SS'd this entire week. So far I've done ~200 matches, so that should be a pretty fair measure for how the average player can fare when queuing up throughout the week.
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    Is this confirmed?
    Because I've seen so many times teams with no or next to no healers and even after getting wiped over and over again none of them would switch heals, so I assumed that they are players who never play heal at all (yet all got matched on the same team).

    --

    Also, give us an LFG tool for pvp imho.
    People could still abuse it and queue as heal and then laugh maniacally/twirl their mustachios as they switch back to DPS when the game pops... But most people would be fair I think.

    There's a LFG tool for dungeons because they figure out you need some things in a PVE team to clear a dungeon, namely a tank and a healer, usually.

    Well, there's some things you need in a PVP team as well.

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    Ascendant Jeremiahcp's Avatar
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    Ya, there is a dev post about it, buried somewhere in these PvP forums.

    What is prob. happening is you are getting people who want to DPS, but the game reads them as a healer due to their past acts in the WF. So the game considers them the heals, even though for that match they are running DPS.

    It's a dumb system that locks people into healing, and discourages others from healing.

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    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    I'm going to use this as an excuse the next time someone suggests I switch to heals: "I don't play heals because then the game would tag me and put me on even worse teams".

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    My simple solution is to always play heals :P I really only dps if there are too many healers when I join (lol....).
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    Ascendant Jeremiahcp's Avatar
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    Here is a post by Ocho

    When the matchmaker is creating two teams for matches, it takes several factors to balance the two teams:
    • team sizes
    • relative total ELO rating
    • attempts to get the same number of healers
    • attempts to get the same number of DPS
    • if possible, have the same number of Pre-mades
    http://forums.riftgame.com/game-disc...ml#post5038868

    As I understand it, determining whether you are DPS or Heals is based on what you do the most in the WF. If you heal a lot you are tagged as a healer, if you dps a lot you are tagged as a dpser.
    Last edited by Jeremiahcp; 03-29-2016 at 09:15 AM.

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    Rift Chaser Croix01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    I'm going to use this as an excuse the next time someone suggests I switch to heals: "I don't play heals because then the game would tag me and put me on even worse teams".
    Rofl!!! I can see this as standard prematch macro spam. Seriously though I play about 60% dps to 40% healz, sometimes I just heal for the day or dps. depends on my mood i guess. didn't think it would effect team layout however
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    Plane Walker Hectyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiahcp View Post
    If you get a group of nothing but DPSers and they lose because of it, well they deserve to lose, as if out of an entire WF grp, none of them are willing to heal, then that is them playing poorly. Don't throw healers into their grp simply because they don't care enough to win.
    I disagree with this notion, although I understand the point you're trying to illustrate.

    I've noticed over the years in mmos & other role-oriented games that certain personality types gravitate toward certain roles. DPS archetypes are the most popular- this is evident by many hugely successful games that don't even provide the option for healer archetypes. It even goes so far that many prefer melee as opposed to range specs, and vice versa.

    So by the notion of your perspective, EVERY player is expected to master & utilize EVERY role in Rift? Sure, if its a raid guild and these concepts are set in place at the onset its perfectly understandable.

    However, many players simply don't want to heal- hell, I'm one of them. On the other hand, there are some players that prefer healer/support roles- and that's fine. But simply because Rift doesn't adhere to a static role concept doesn't mean that every individual player should feel bound to some "code" that they are required to provide specs outside of those they like and/or feel comfortable with simply to satiate the escalating "arms race" of overtuned heal specs in warzones. And if they suffer a defeat as a result of refusing to heal, they shrug it off & await the next match and consider the other players who also refused to heal- so like any other loss or victory, its a team effort.

    Rift pvp isn't an esport. No streams gathering large audiences. No huge tournaments offering cash prizes. No semblance of class balance, nor any balanced dynamic regarding melee versus ranged options. What does this mean?

    What it means is that the primary- and only- incentive is FUN. If it isn't fun for a specific player to play a heal spec in a solo-queued situation, then why should they? And if it isn't fun for you when others don't fulfill your desires as to creating an optimal team setup, then I suggest sticking with premades or learn to shrug off disappointment with ease.

    For a game that provides pvp as a diversionary minigame, some people sure do take it too seriously.
    Last edited by Hectyr; 03-29-2016 at 04:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hectyr View Post
    ...snip...
    I think you are missing the point. The OP has a single request: do not throw healers into a warfront halfway through the match in which no other player has bothered to switch over to heals. If a team wishes to stay all DPS, good for them. Let them lose without throwing in a sacrificial healer in a doomed effort to save the team.

    He is not demanding that all players know all of the roles, he is simply asking to not be thrown into doomed teams.

    Personally, I don't really agree with him since I have been thrown into some of these teams regularly enough, and sometimes I do manage to shift the tide of battle. I don't mind being thrown into a losing battle as long as there is enough time to actually turn it around.

    Any chance we could get more favour for being thrown into losing battles?

  14. #14
    Ascendant Jeremiahcp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hectyr View Post
    I disagree with this notion, although I understand the point you're trying to illustrate.

    I've noticed over the years in mmos & other role-oriented games that certain personality types gravitate toward certain roles. DPS archetypes are the most popular- this is evident by many hugely successful games that don't even provide the option for healer archetypes. It even goes so far that many prefer melee as opposed to range specs, and vice versa.

    So by the notion of your perspective, EVERY player is expected to master & utilize EVERY role in Rift? Sure, if its a raid guild and these concepts are set in place at the onset its perfectly understandable.

    However, many players simply don't want to heal- hell, I'm one of them. On the other hand, there are some players that prefer healer/support roles- and that's fine. But simply because Rift doesn't adhere to a static role concept doesn't mean that every individual player should feel bound to some "code" that they are required to provide specs outside of those they like and/or feel comfortable with simply to satiate the escalating "arms race" of overtuned heal specs in warzones. And if they suffer a defeat as a result of refusing to heal, they shrug it off & await the next match and consider the other players who also refused to heal- so like any other loss or victory, its a team effort.

    Rift pvp isn't an esport. No streams gathering large audiences. No huge tournaments offering cash prizes. No semblance of class balance, nor any balanced dynamic regarding melee versus ranged options. What does this mean?

    What it means is that the primary- and only- incentive is FUN. If it isn't fun for a specific player to play a heal spec in a solo-queued situation, then why should they? And if it isn't fun for you when others don't fulfill your desires as to creating an optimal team setup, then I suggest sticking with premades or learn to shrug off disappointment with ease.

    For a game that provides pvp as a diversionary minigame, some people sure do take it too seriously.
    I don't care what people play. All I am asking is not to be purposely placed with a group that cares so little about winning they can't heal for one WF, because the "gravitate" towards DPS. If they want to run around and "gravitate" towards dps and lose then that is their choice, but I shouldn't be purposely placed in their fail.
    Last edited by Jeremiahcp; 03-29-2016 at 05:27 PM.

  15. #15
    Telaran
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    I get what you're saying but sometimes it actually works out. I was doin a warfront and I showed late to the party and ended up doing the most healing for our side, enabling my team to win. I loaded in it and it was 330ish to 57ish, and we won 500 to 378 all because our team got another healer and was able to get their stuff together.

    http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/...pse7ye3yzi.jpg

    Then again, I only heal warfronts, I've gone MM once, maybe twice within the last 6 months in a wf. lol
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Healers placement in losing matches.-2016-03-29_215048.jpg  
    May the frogue be with you.

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