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Thread: returning patron, just hit 65, new to pvp /discouraged

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    Soulwalker
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    Default returning patron, just hit 65, new to pvp /discouraged

    Greetings, I have just resubscribed as patron, hit 65 and have began doing warfronts. I am a bit discouraged though. Although my sample size is extremely small after 2 days of pvping, most of the games seems extremely lopsided. One team seems to completely dominate the other with no chance of winning. I have a few questions for the veterans out there.

    How does the que system work? is it random based off gear?

    Do I need to be more patient in regards to the games, meaning I don't mind losing but it seems the teams I land in have no chance whatsoever. How is this fun for either side?

    Do I need to be in a premade team to profit at all from warfronts?

    Lastly for the developers, is this working as intended? As a returning player and new to warfronts, why should I keep queing if I keep losing badly? thanks all for your time.

  2. #2
    Rift Chaser ChamberDown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yobbles View Post
    Greetings, I have just resubscribed as patron, hit 65 and have began doing warfronts. I am a bit discouraged though. Although my sample size is extremely small after 2 days of pvping, most of the games seems extremely lopsided. One team seems to completely dominate the other with no chance of winning. I have a few questions for the veterans out there.

    How does the que system work? is it random based off gear?

    Do I need to be more patient in regards to the games, meaning I don't mind losing but it seems the teams I land in have no chance whatsoever. How is this fun for either side?

    Do I need to be in a premade team to profit at all from warfronts?

    Lastly for the developers, is this working as intended? As a returning player and new to warfronts, why should I keep queing if I keep losing badly? thanks all for your time.
    I'm sorry to hear your experience was like this. I'll see if I can help shed some light on the goods and the bads of Rift PvP.

    1.) Gear. For players who are just returning and have max level characters (65) the gear disparities are going to be huge. So much so that you might enter a warfront with 65-70k HP and other players running similar builds to you that are in T2/T3 may have 85k+. This may not seem like a big deal, but on top of this, you'll hit them less hard and they'll you hit you harder, which makes it very difficult especially as a solo queue player. Now there is a bolstering system that blends this very distinct line slightly, but its not nearly enough to make a fresh or close to fresh 65 competitive with a full t2 character (max allowed without downbolster).

    Normally I would say this is no problem, however Rift uses an ELO system which grants or deducts ELO based on if you win or lose a match. It's not a perfect system, and sometimes you may even find yourself in a 5+ game losing streak, although statistically, you will win at some point. Some other games use more successful systems that work off of an equipment level or item level, this way players are more evenly matched and player skill is more of the deciding factor in a win or loss. However they have their faults as well.

    In my opinion, it would make for much better matchmaking if they introduced PVP tiers that put people into brackets based on a variable such has matches played, etc, so that you weren't thrust into the matches with T3 premades that murder you in 1 or 2 global cooldowns before you can even react. I believe there are some games out there that put you into a novice pool until you had 30 games played, beginner until around 100 games, something like that allowing players some time to learn the objectives, gather up some gear to prevent instant deaths, and keeping these people playing because they can still have some fun.

    2.) Pre-Mades. most people when they get into a losing warfront will immediately shout "Premade is why we are losing!" when often times this isn't true, you can check this yourself by opening up the warfront menu with the ` key and looking for numbers before a players name. Any player who has a number next to their name is in a premade group with people rocking that same number. Often times you'll find some of these premades are 5 awesome competitive players wrecking shop, sometimes you'll find its a group of 5 casual players who aren't good at all. A good premade will definitely change the outcome of the map, and if you really want to be competitive, getting yourself into one will increase your chances of succeeding.

    This doesn't mean its required, but the more effort you put into the experience the more you will be rewarded. The reason some of these players do so well is because they know the maps, they know the build they're playing, and they know how to work together to accomplish the objective. For instance, "target-of-target" is a very popular focus method, where you'll see a premade of maybe 3 DPS 1 healer and 1 dom variant. One of those dps will chose the targets, and the other 2 will just keep their teammate targeted, and enable "cast on targets target" so that no matter what, as long as they are all in range of the target, they're all 3 firing on the same target. This makes it very easy to drop healers quickly. There are some extremely varying levels of effort in regard to rift pvp.

    3.) Objectives. Quite simply, a lot of players don't know how to play the maps. They don't know which parts award more points, they don't know the common strategies and choke points, and they don't know how to contribute to a team win. This is evident in a LOT of warfronts. I would say this is partially because Rift and the Trion team don't do a super fantastic job laying out the rules of the map in the first place and the other part is some people just want to kill other people, slayer style. Ways this could potentially be fixed is offering a team deathmatch style warfront or 3 to allow these people an outlet, and also a way to complete their ascended carnage weekly that could also net them a win

    The best way to combat this is to read as much as you can on all the warfront maps and try to find out what common strategies are. Also communicating with your team is generally a good thing too. A lot of times you'll meet nice players who will tell you about tips and tricks for each map before it starts so don't be afraid to ask questions, and just ignore the people who try to berate you, they have a difficult time understanding the concept of player acquisition and retention, and don't get that everyone is new and learning at some point. There are a lot of toxic players in Rift PvP, just don't let yourself be discouraged by them.

    I hope some of this was at least insightful. The bottom line is Rift PvP is in a weird area for newer/returning players but I believe Trion is changing up the way they do PvP in the coming future, so hopefully those future changes address some of your concerns. For now I would say keep queuing and look for some people that are good to que with and ask them questions about each of the maps. =)
    Are you a player looking for class guides and other Rift content?
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  3. #3
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yobbles View Post
    How does the que system work?
    according to the players: it doesn't.
    according to trion: the data says it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yobbles View Post
    is it random based off gear?
    no.
    it is based off of Elo.
    as a new player you will have a starting Elo of 1500.
    this will then go up if you win, or down if you lose.
    teams are matched such that both teams have the same total Elo

    Quote Originally Posted by Yobbles View Post
    Do I need to be more patient in regards to the games, meaning I don't mind losing...
    yes.
    Rifts philosophy for its approach to pvp is "progression through failure".
    when the matchmaking system is sorting out its players for a match, players who are currently suffering through a losing streak are evenly divided between the two teams.
    essentially this means once you've lost a few games, you will get a free win, regardless of if you've been pvping like a pro, or afking while watching Netflix.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yobbles View Post
    ... but it seems the teams I land in have no chance whatsoever. How is this fun for either side?
    its not.
    Rift pvp is not about fun. its about being in a bucket.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yobbles View Post
    Do I need to be in a premade team to profit at all from warfronts?
    yes, with a but.
    also no, with a sometimes.

    if you queue with a premade, you reduce the number of potatoes on your team (potato = nub), which is a good thing.
    however, the matchmaking system will try to match you against another premade. this premade may well be far superior to your own. particularly if they are BiS geared, and you are not.

    there is no separate queue for premades, so when you solo queue you are likely to have premades on both teams anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yobbles View Post
    Lastly for the developers, is this working as intended? As a returning player and new to warfronts, why should I keep queing if I keep losing badly? thanks all for your time.
    not a dev, so I cant speak for them, but the bucket must be filled somehow.
    also, if you excel at losing badly, and continue to queue regardless, you may be honoured with a NPC in your name in margle palace (like the one near the pvp weekly quest givers, surrounded by afk bots. his name is Fernand. if you see him in game you should /grovel while chanting "I'm not worthy... I'm not worthy...).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  4. #4
    Rift Disciple
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yobbles View Post
    How does the que system work? is it random based off gear?
    According to Trion:
    "When the matchmaker is creating two teams for matches, it takes several factors to balance the two teams:
    team sizes
    relative total ELO rating
    attempts to get the same number of healers
    attempts to get the same number of DPS
    if possible, have the same number of Pre-mades"

    Quote Originally Posted by Yobbles View Post
    Do I need to be more patient in regards to the games, meaning I don't mind losing but it seems the teams I land in have no chance whatsoever. How is this fun for either side?
    Be prepared for having 4-5 terrible lopsided games in a row in between more even games.

    You would think it's not fun for either side, but apparently there are a lot of people who get pleasure from completely smashing people who have no chance to even give them a workout.
    Of course it's always possible that they just take out their frustration over having been smashed themselves during the 4 previous games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yobbles View Post
    Do I need to be in a premade team to profit at all from warfronts?
    Not really. But when you queue togehter at least you can share the suffering and frustration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yobbles View Post
    Lastly for the developers, is this working as intended? As a returning player and new to warfronts, why should I keep queing if I keep losing badly? thanks all for your time.
    We have been told repeatedly, by devs, and by some players who apparently do not share our experience of the match making, that it's working fine.

  5. #5
    Plane Walker
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    Great post by chamberdown
    I was excactly the same as you a few months ago when i returned and levelled my old myrmidon 60s.
    Theres enjoyment to be had, but first you have to accept that many matches will be lopsided, its not great but thats how it is. If youre a decent player then as you get geared you will feel yourself contributing more and more and starting to influence the outcomes and have some great close matches.
    If you cant accept and enjoy this then you will get very frustrated and possibly become one of the many babies who spend most of thier time whining and throwing abuse and afk'ing and generally making the whole experience worse for everyone.

    Some of us live in hope that things will improve but trion seem to have the knack of making things slightly worse everytime they change something
    Sklub Captainblood Opezmode Dpsclericlol Coad

  6. #6
    Champion of Telara Wackywoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    there is no separate queue for premades, so when you solo queue you are likely to have premades on both teams anyway.
    I'v been in a couple of matches where my team has had no premades and the enemy team has had two or three premades.

    In fact, I had a streak of matches like that.. And it was always against the same premades from the matches before.

    15 bis geared players getting put on the same team every match.

    Can people queue as a 20man group, and get put on the same team as 5man premades?
    Last edited by Wackywoo; 03-16-2016 at 01:41 AM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    Rift pvp is not about fun. its about being in a bucket.

    There really need to be a compilation thread of all the bucket jokes on the forums.

    To the OP :
    A lot of games are lopsided. It can be explained partly by the ELO sometime failing miserably, but it's also that the way the game is designed ( with crossheals and all that ) even if teams are almost balanced, that slight difference can sometime means the worst team won't kill anyone at all.

    There's also class balance... You can have a team where everyone is stubborn and refuse to play healer and they still have reasonable elos because they usually play on teams with healers so they win their fair share, but now you've got no heals and you're facing an opposing ELO as strong as yours, but they have heals, you're gonna lose badly despite similar team balance.

    Or similarly, a top-geared assassin who can carry his team and stuff, will have a better winrate on domination maps, so on these maps he'll be better than his ELO, and on non-domination maps he'll be worse than his ELO. In practise, this means that say this guy wins 70% of his dom maps and 50% of the other maps ( for an average of 60% ), well lets say you play a non-dom map. Well this guy wins 50% of that kind of maps, but as his average winrate is 60%, they will put someone else who wins 60% of his game to match his ELO.
    But if that guy doesn't have an inflated ELO on some maps, so he'll do better than the assassin, despite having same elo, and will carry the team harder, and so on.

    There's quite a bit of luck too. Bad players (and even good players at times) seem to play pretty randomly in PVP about what they do and who they attack. Sometime it works by chance and sometime it doesn't.

    As for the gear... Your gear is bolstered, it's not as bad as people make it to be. Make sure your gearslots are all filled, because empty slots don't get bolstered.
    Make sure your gear is runed/dreamorbered, this goes over the bolstering. (If you don't know what bolstering is... basically you use an item with 300 stats, it'll turn it into a 500 stats item in PVP. But if you rune/dreamorb it to get to 400 stats, it'll turn it in the 500 stats PLUS your runes and dreamorb, so you get a 600 stat item ).

    You'll replace your gear quite fast, but runes ( the basic ones ) are quite cheap, it's worth doing it even if you might change the item in a few days.

    You won't be able to win 1v1's against fully geared players, of course... But you can do your part. Play a solid spec that doesn't get focused too much ( i.e. not melee ) and try to focus fire on the important targets and/or whoever the top players on your team are hitting.
    Doesn't matter if you only do half their damage, it's PLUS 50% damage they get on their target, makes difference between someone getting healed up, or someone dying from focused fire/burst.

    In fact, I'd go as far as saying that if you target the right player/focus targets/assists your top players, you'll be more effective as a fresh 65 than most fully geared players are by hitting random targets/whoever is closest to them, which about 75% of the pvpers do.

    If you devote a reasonable amount of time to PVP you'll get all the basic set of gear real fast (minus a few pieces that are harder to find) and from this point you can do well. Not "raid-geared" well, but you'll do better than the average player in warfronts, if you know what you're doing.

  8. #8
    Ascendant SprawlnBrawl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yobbles View Post
    Greetings, I have just resubscribed as patron, hit 65 and have began doing warfronts. I am a bit discouraged though. Although my sample size is extremely small after 2 days of pvping, most of the games seems extremely lopsided. One team seems to completely dominate the other with no chance of winning. I have a few questions for the veterans out there.

    How does the que system work? is it random based off gear?

    Do I need to be more patient in regards to the games, meaning I don't mind losing but it seems the teams I land in have no chance whatsoever. How is this fun for either side?

    Do I need to be in a premade team to profit at all from warfronts?

    Lastly for the developers, is this working as intended? As a returning player and new to warfronts, why should I keep queing if I keep losing badly? thanks all for your time.
    did you literally just ding 65? If so, do you have every single slot filled including all essences, trinket and earrings? If not, you are large factor that those matches are lopsided. Also what class/sepc are you playing?
    Last edited by SprawlnBrawl; 03-16-2016 at 11:04 AM.

  9. #9
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by somerandomnamee View Post

    There really need to be a compilation thread of all the bucket jokes on the forums.
    its an analogy that pvp wears better than other parts of the game, imo

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  10. #10
    Soulwalker
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    Thanks to everyone for the responses and special thanks to Chamberdown for the detail, I have actually watched a few of your videos on you tube and have subscribed to your channel.

    I have kept up with the warfronts despite some losses, my current ELO is a bit ugly, 1282 I believe with 11 wins and 29 losses. Hopefully as I gear it will get better. I am still below 70 K health and have noticed some players with 107 K, needless to say they are hard to solo kill. I am running a pyromancer spec and have done decent against people at my health level but some classes just eat me alive.

    In regards to the random que grouping, I didn't seem to hit the auto win (for lack of a better name) after my 4 to 5 straight losses. I recall last night 12 losses before I won my first win of the night. Anyways I will continue to que despite the losses (a NPC statue in my memory would be nice .) because I don't like to quit, I enjoy the rush of pvp to much.

    Again, thanks to all for the responses and see you in game.

    Lastly, I would still love a response from a developer if this is all working as intended for a new 65 of 3 days now.

    Cheers!

  11. #11
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    the 100k hp players will mostly be chloros (if mage) or newbie players in tank specs (if other classes).

    dps/tank hybrids tend to be around 90k hp

    full tanks between 120-140k.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  12. #12
    Rift Disciple Ninnisina's Avatar
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    Warfronts is "Rift - Prepare to Die Edition"

    I haven't been a fresh max lvl for a long time so I almost forgot how that feels, but yea you will definitely have a hard time in PvP.

    I hear some people are at ~35% win rate, luckily I can carry a lot of my WFs so I am always an asset to my team with heals, but if you are a fresh 65 that can barely scratch others in PvP and gets 2-3shotted him self... well GL to you not dying of pure frustration.

    If you can try maybe a healing class, I think that a bad heal is of more value than a bad dps.
    Last edited by Ninnisina; 03-16-2016 at 10:40 PM.
    If you are not bleeding then you are not trying hard enough

  13. #13
    Plane Touched Peachezz's Avatar
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    Ima bucket

  14. #14
    General of Telara Sheo's Avatar
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    If you are bad geared do not play chloro! I mean it. Bad geared solo chloro is a free kill to the other team.
    Your best shot as fresh 65 playing dom (arb-dom if you have the soul)
    CC and mana drain does not require good gear but can turn tides.
    Sheona/Faynee <VANEN> , <Apotheosys>

  15. #15
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    Already posted this in another topic, but I'll leave it here as well:

    https://youtu.be/Tz95xn0g1fY

    The gear gap is pretty significant. Fortunately, gearing up past the initial level of suck doesn't take that long.

    Focus on getting as many Dreambreaker pieces from your Marauder Supply Caches. Once you get a piece that has the right stats for you (be it Spell Power, Spell Crit, or Crit Power), focus on upgrading that one piece to Warmonger and putting a top-end rune and Dream Orb in it.

    Do make sure that piece is one that can have a Dream Orb inserted inside.

    As for getting wins, the best thing you can do as a poorly geared player is do the ojectives. Pop a Recon Vial, scan the map for weak spots, and hit undefended objectives. Rift Tomb will be invaluable for this.

    Good luck, and feel free to look me up for a Duo if you see me online.

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