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Thread: Harbinger PvP Balance

  1. #1
    Rift Chaser Xamaron's Avatar
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    Default Harbinger PvP Balance

    It has came to my attention since the recent harbinger changes how disproportionately powerful they in comparison to every other melee spec in the game in a PvP environment in terms of CC, Anti-CC, Escapability, and Survivability.

    Crowd Control
    ------------------
    Firstly in terms of crowd control Harbinger offers a 5 second stun with a 30 meter range (Disabling Shock). As a melee spec this stun should be limited to melee range, no other melee dps spec in the game has a 30 meter ranged stun let alone one which lasts for 5 seconds. During this window, if an opponent has no available CC break (break-free in most cases) the harbinger can easily utilise empyrean ascension and burst the opponent down within this time frame. In addition to this harbinger also offers a 4 second stun after executing blade rush upon an opponent. Only a short window of time is allowed after the the stun effect from Disabling Shock for the opponent to react either offensively or defensively before they can be affected by the additional 4 second stun. Please review these abilities and adjust them in pvp to be more in line with what other melee dps specs in the game have to offer.

    Anti-CC
    ----------
    In addition to a regular break free which all souls have access too harbinger offers a secondary CC break (Planar Retreat) which will additionally teleport you backwards 20 meters to escape combat and either retreat or replan your assault. The imbalance here is that it is on a 30 second cooldown. Shaman can spec into -out of soul- Cabalist's Dark Passage at a heavy loss of dps. Paragon can spec into 'out of soul' elude, which still leaves you prone to being CC'ed during the leap animation and furthermore being on a 1 minute cooldown in comparison to Harbinger's 30 second cooldown on Planar Retreat. I would like to also point out here that the main imbalance with Harbinger's anti-CC is not necessarily their second CC break on a 30 second CD but their access to Pyromancer's Flicker
    (15 second cooldown) by placing 11 points into Pyromancer, effectively giving them three full crowd control breaks, two of which are also powerful escapes. A solution to balance this in PvP would be to either move flicker higher up into the Pyromancer soul tree OR increase the cooldown on increase the cooldown on Harbinger's Planar Retreat.

    Escapability
    -------------------
    Harbinger has access to an ability which renders them invisible and forces their next three abilities to critically hit. This would be reasonable if it was on a longer cooldown, but as it stands it has only a 30 second cooldown effectively making it a get out of jail free card every thirty seconds. Assassin rogues have 'Slip Away' which is on a 2 minute cooldown. Reaver can (unreliably) become invisible and escape combat every 1 minute and 30 seconds using Cloak of Death. Tempest can become invisible providing they are out of combat and remain stationary. Cabalist can become invisible every 1 minute providing they remain stationary. Yet Harbingers can become slip away on a 30 second cooldown giving them an enormous advantage in small and large scale PvP fights over all other melee specs. Please review this ability and adjust it in pvp for balancing purposes.

    Survivability
    -------------------
    Harbinger's secondary CC break and disconnect and their access to an additional teleport&CC break alone are powerful survivability tools yet they also have access to 20% damage reduction when they activate Empyrean Ascension, a further 5% damage reduction from the 'Combat Mastery' talent and an additional 5% damage reduction if they choose to feat into stormcaller (where they can also aquire an additional CC break 'Ride The Wind' if they choose not spec into Pyromancer). This effectively gives them 30% damage reduction for 15 seconds whilst affected by Empyrean Ascension. Granted Assassin rogues can have 25% damage reduction following a stealth attack used from stealth, 10% of which only affects the opponent who is affected by the Assassin's enfeebling poison, although assassin rogues rely on a single CC break unlike Harbinger. In addition to this enormous damage reduction whilst affected by Empyrean Ascension Harbinger has a passive shield which can activate once every 10 second for 5 seconds absorbing 5% of their total health pool in addition to a charge consuming ability called Planar Shield which reduces the damage of the next 5 incoming attacks by 5% of the mages total health pool. Please review the damage reduction harbingers are granted whilst affected by empyrean ascension (which also drastically increases their damage at the same time) and how the damage reduction increases the effectiveness of the harbingers absorb shields.
    Dispatched@laethys

  2. #2
    Sword of Telara Nithydux's Avatar
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    Cause why should mages have a halfway viable pvp soul that isn't 100% rng or the cancerous arbdom?
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  3. #3
    Rift Disciple JICHAEL's Avatar
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    Nice write up.

    I don't think they should get nerfed, but they do seem to be the Pay2Win version of Sins; better burst, better escapes, higher survivability combined with faster and more modern CD's-- with that said, I don't think they are OP just better than other souls..
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  4. #4
    Plane Walker InflatablePanda's Avatar
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    Things should definitely change in regards to some stuff. But one thing cant just change and not the other. A reasonable amount of small changes need to be done across the souls to unify balance in problem aspects. Harb can't be hit alone.

  5. #5
    Shadowlander Lotusss's Avatar
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    I don't understand why Reaver was nerfed then Harb received buffs making it almost like Reaver, except the melee version (do we still call souls that are ranged, literally, half the time, melee?). Harb has passive cleave just like Reaver (thinking PVE), slip away, a ton of more mitigation, lots of self healing ( a **** ton if you spec into chloro 8 points) and really good burst (if you can't burst with it you're bad). Their slip away is, arguably, on par with sins. Between their port, and 50% speed buff for 15s, they can easily get out of harms way, by LOSing behind a wall or just get out of range (mount up in 0.5s and dip out, ezpz). Even if all fails, you can't catch them because of their "lol" passive movement speed. On top of ALL the healing listed above, they can easily pick up Phantom Stream and @self cast it after they slip away. They don't have to use a "stealth ability" to get a buff similar to cloak and dagger like rogues do either -_-. Luckily there are only 4 good harbs in the game and it easier just to avoid them and let them farm the potatoes. It's like the devs try and balance something yet release another abomination shortly after - maybe they like the activity it brings the to the forums. Oh well, that's Rift

    Current Harb >> Pre nerf Reaver

    It's like the product of Prenerf Reaver and Assdancer if they ever had a baby.

  6. #6
    Ascendant ecru's Avatar
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    the reason no one cares is because almost no one plays harb and plays pyro instead. if we had harbs running around every warfront chain stunning and blowing up people in melee from 20m with phantom blades while being un-cc'able with ridiculous uptime on run speed and serious mitigation during EA, more people would be calling for nerfs.

    the most obvious thing to me is that i cannot actually catch a harb that does not want to be caught. they can kite me better than ranged souls can, which by itself isn't much of a problem, but compared to the tools i have as shaman to either get into melee range or get out, i feel extremely weak in comparison when the entire time i'm fighting a harbinger i'm using ranged abilities while they're using melee ones.
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    Rift Chaser Xamaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecru View Post
    the reason no one cares is because almost no one plays harb and plays pyro instead. if we had harbs running around every warfront chain stunning and blowing up people in melee from 20m with phantom blades while being un-cc'able with ridiculous uptime on run speed and serious mitigation during EA, more people would be calling for nerfs.

    the most obvious thing to me is that i cannot actually catch a harb that does not want to be caught. they can kite me better than ranged souls can, which by itself isn't much of a problem, but compared to the tools i have as shaman to either get into melee range or get out, i feel extremely weak in comparison when the entire time i'm fighting a harbinger i'm using ranged abilities while they're using melee ones.
    oh yeah Phantom blades has 30 meters range
    Dispatched@laethys

  8. #8
    Ascendant Gilgad's Avatar
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    1) Get rid of hailstorm
    2) Get rid of phantom blades, you're a melee spec.
    3) Get rid of blademark.

    Mage problems solved.

  9. #9
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilgad View Post
    1) Get rid of hailstorm
    2) Get rid of phantom blades, you're a melee spec.
    3) Get rid of blademark.

    Mage problems solved.
    Hailstorm is in the stormcaller tree...

  10. #10
    Plane Walker Kartia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilgad View Post
    1) Get rid of hailstorm
    2) Get rid of phantom blades, you're a melee spec.
    3) Get rid of blademark.

    Mage problems solved.

    get rid of grasping the horizon.

  11. #11
    Ascendant Gilgad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kartia View Post
    get rid of grasping the horizon.
    I mean i'm pretty sure this thread is about harbingers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hp1harry View Post
    Hailstorm is in the stormcaller tree...
    I know, it's been a plague to mage for god knows how long, so many requests to just move it up in the tree, stupid ability. Mage's shouldn't have to deal with the abomination.
    Last edited by Gilgad; 01-13-2016 at 01:49 AM.

  12. #12
    Ascendant
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lotusss View Post
    Current Harb >> Pre nerf Reaver
    That is just ridiculous. The problem with Reaver was massive AoE damage, Excellent St damage, and an AoE heal debuff. The combination of the three would shift the balance of the battler drastically.

    The current Harb has a bag of tricks that makes it a very versatile ST DPS if well played. It can get kills and get out of tight spots, but it is not a game changer.

  13. #13
    Plane Walker Kartia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nefelia View Post
    That is just ridiculous. The problem with Reaver was massive AoE damage, Excellent St damage, and an AoE heal debuff. The combination of the three would shift the balance of the battler drastically.

    The current Harb has a bag of tricks that makes it a very versatile ST DPS if well played. It can get kills and get out of tight spots, but it is not a game changer.
    ofc it is, he exaggerating. harb cant ranged aoe, only if they use the proc or casting (that is pure stupid) range increase only 15sec and not 30 sec, and only ST. Speccing into chloro like speccing a warrior into wl for recovery posture and battlefield medic. It is excellent duel build tough, but I believe only 2-3 players play that on whole EU, and none of them roaming in cq for anymore. Other worth-to-mention harbs are left already, one of them long time ago, other just recently. All harb stuff cleansable, and comparing sin stealth and hidden veil to harb stealth is just facepalm. Every single soul or class can spec into planar variation lol. (and I was told for mages it cant crit ever because of bug) 61 harb cant spec into veil and ride the wind same time! They have a passive speed increase, we have a spammable snare.

    Mages play dom or pyro, very-very rare if I see a harb and it is usually somebody with a premade and get pocket healed.

  14. #14
    Plane Touched Grobari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lotusss View Post
    I don't understand why Reaver was nerfed then Harb received buffs making it almost like Reaver, except the melee version (do we still call souls that are ranged, literally, half the time, melee?). Harb has passive cleave just like Reaver (thinking PVE), slip away, a ton of more mitigation, lots of self healing ( a **** ton if you spec into chloro 8 points) and really good burst (if you can't burst with it you're bad). Their slip away is, arguably, on par with sins. Between their port, and 50% speed buff for 15s, they can easily get out of harms way, by LOSing behind a wall or just get out of range (mount up in 0.5s and dip out, ezpz). Even if all fails, you can't catch them because of their "lol" passive movement speed. On top of ALL the healing listed above, they can easily pick up Phantom Stream and @self cast it after they slip away. They don't have to use a "stealth ability" to get a buff similar to cloak and dagger like rogues do either -_-. Luckily there are only 4 good harbs in the game and it easier just to avoid them and let them farm the potatoes. It's like the devs try and balance something yet release another abomination shortly after - maybe they like the activity it brings the to the forums. Oh well, that's Rift

    Current Harb >> Pre nerf Reaver

    It's like the product of Prenerf Reaver and Assdancer if they ever had a baby.
    a big difference is that even the dumbest warrior in game could play reaver and soak 90% of the soul in PvP or in PvE,dont think or seen more than 1% of mages who actually like to PvP that can play Harb at a good level
    Last edited by Grobari; 01-13-2016 at 06:43 AM.
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  15. #15
    Champion of Telara McChaffe's Avatar
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    Calling Harbinger another version of reaver is dumb. First and foremost, Harbinger requires way more attention to keep up it's performance. Unlike reaver which you can easily manage with 6-7 buttons, I have a 16 button harbinger build. That's not even including the built in break free bound to my middle mouse.

    Harbinger is a soul where if you're up against someone who knows how to play it, you're going to be in for the fight of your life because they know how to play the soul. If you're up against someone who has no idea how to play it, you're going to destroy them.

    Also for the guy complaining about hailstorm, if there's a harbinger using that in PvP they're bad. PvP harbingers should not be using hailstorm.

    Also....

    Quote Originally Posted by Xamaron View Post
    (where they can also aquire an additional CC break 'Ride The Wind' if they choose not spec into Pyromancer).
    Wat. Why would they ever spec into pyro? Why?
    Last edited by McChaffe; 01-13-2016 at 07:41 AM.
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