+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 54
Like Tree48Likes

Thread: Warmonger update hate alt-aholics, turns gearing up into a no-progression grind.

  1. #1
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,485

    Default Warmonger update hate alt-aholics, turns gearing up into a no-progression grind.

    I've read the thread about how raiding now cost a billion plats per character, making it so people don't even raid with alts anymore because it's too expensive and all that.

    I kinda feel the same about pvp now with the Warmonger update.
    I've always enjoyed playing many characters. Now, everytime I do the math on how long I still have to farm to get the warmonger stuff, I feel like quitting.

    Trion, you have a reputation for not loving your PVP'ers, but thing is, there's actually a lot of players who only enjoy PVP and don't even intend on ever taking part in the PVE dungeon/raid grind.

    If these players only play a single character, it's not so bad, but when you add alts in the picture, it quickly becomes horrible. Especially for newcomers.

    If some new player comes in and plays all 5 classes... Assuming he wants the warmonger weapons (and of course he wants the warmonger weapons), it means that he can't upgrade any piece of gear until he has enough favor to buy the warmonger marks for the weapon ( and most likely, upgrade it too ).

    The warmonger 2handers costs 24 warmonger marks, i.e. 2.4 million favors.
    If you play 5 characters, that's 12 millions favors. Ok, if you play ranged rogue the bow is only 12 I think, but still, at 12m I'm not counting upgrades and offhands, so let's keep it at that.

    I hear people talking about getting 11k favors in a warfront, but that's not the norm (especially considering the lost warfronts, and the small warfronts with a small amount of kills).

    From what I've seen, the average for all players on a WF (both teams) seems to be more around 3k.

    12 million favors at 3k a warfront means 4000 warfronts.
    4000 warfronts at, say, 15 minutes per warfront(including queue times and startup times and all that) means 60000 minutes, or 1000 hours.

    So, for a player who plays all classes, for a thousand hours of PVP he won't have any PVP weapons ( now that they don't even drop anymore ) or any upgrade over the basic gear... which is not only bad compared to the upgraded pvp gear, is even worse compared to the PVE one.

    Now I just feel like stopping playing most of my characters (only keep one or two) because the cost of buying/upgrading everything is insane. a 3 hours a day, 1000 hours would take me a year. Most people don't even play that much. And that's 3 hours a day of pvp, no NMR, no rep grind, no platinum farming, nothing other than PVP.

    I'm a returning player, and back then (at release, and some time after that) I used the play a lot of alts, and was pvp'ing with them all, and I could see the progress. Every few days, I would buy a new item, I would see my character's stats improving constantly.

    Now? We're talking weeks or even months of saving favors without buying/upgrading anything at all, so you can buy the weapon.

    This **** will make people stop playing alts altogether, just like they're apparently doing with raids.

    The main difference in now/before...
    Before, I could play all characters and still progress. So I was enjoying a bunch of different gameplay experiences.
    Now, if I play the exact same amount of time I did before, and I want to progress as fast as before, I have to play a single one. So, do the same thing over and over and over and over again on just 1 character. And even then, it still won't be as fast as it was before.
    Even on 1 character, it's still what, 100-200 hours? that's still a couple months of gaming. I don't recall having to wait even just weeks between gear upgrades while playing with 4+ characters back then.

    One of Rift's strength is diversity. You can play a bunch of classes with a bunch of specs.
    Only, everyone plays the same 3-4 specs on every classes, and now you're pretty much forcing people into playing only 1 class.

    Not so diverse anymore.
    I just bought the primalist and... I don't even know if I can afford to keep on playing him.
    I mean if I want to get the weapons for my other characters at some point in 2016.

    Everything that was fun and diverse before, now just seems repetitive and grindy.
    It wasn't so long before, why does it have to be long now?
    To keep people on the game, keep them hooked on?
    But you don't do that by having them complete chores. You do that by having them do something fun.

    MMO's are in a big part about progression, and having to play hundreds of warfronts without upgrading a single piece of gear is just not fun.

    And if you play all classes the game is offering, now it's thousand/s of warfronts.

    I have the feeling that (as for the raiders) many will drop their alts because they can't farm all this anymore, but when they're done, what then?
    After months and months of favor farming, will they be willing to do it all over again for an alt, hundreds of gaming before having any progress? or will they just quit it?

    Having the warmonger items cost the same currency as the upgrades was a bad idea, especially considering how much it cost. Before the warmonger update you still wanted to get&upgrade your weapon first, but back then it didn't take you months to do it. Playing alts was reasonable then. Now? Not so much, at least now for newcomers who start from scratch... and these are the ones that can keep the game running.

    Now it seems like whatever these new players will want to do, they'll see the grind wall in front of them.
    Want to get the best raid gear? Better shell out 10,000's plats to gear up.
    Want to get the best pvp gear? Better accept the fact that your weapons will suck for hundreds of hours of gameplay and all your gear will be sub-par until you get those weapons. ( upgrading the gear before you get the weapons would be even worse, pushing back the most important item ).

  2. #2
    Ascendant forbiddenlake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    5,778

    Default

    The cost of warmonger's essentially means they're unattainable for me. I'm not even going to try.

  3. #3
    Champion LSUdogg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    513

    Default

    it really is ridiculous for those of us who like playing our alts just as much as our mains. a week or so ago, i was so determined to finally get and upgrade my first warmonger dagger (which was an upgrade from the empowered dreambreaker sword- because a damn dagger never even dropped for me) that i grinded out 700k favor in a week... besides still playing my alts. i haven't even logged on to rift since. the burnout is real.
    "That which does not kill us makes us stronger." - Friedrich Nietzsche
    Aym @ Seastone
    GM of Stealthed Lives Matter

  4. #4
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    4,004

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by somerandomnamee View Post
    I've read the thread about how raiding now cost a billion plats per character, making it so people don't even raid with alts anymore because it's too expensive and all that.

    I kinda feel the same about pvp now with the Warmonger update.
    I've always enjoyed playing many characters. Now, everytime I do the math on how long I still have to farm to get the warmonger stuff, I feel like quitting.

    Trion, you have a reputation for not loving your PVP'ers, but thing is, there's actually a lot of players who only enjoy PVP and don't even intend on ever taking part in the PVE dungeon/raid grind.

    If these players only play a single character, it's not so bad, but when you add alts in the picture, it quickly becomes horrible. Especially for newcomers.

    If some new player comes in and plays all 5 classes... Assuming he wants the warmonger weapons (and of course he wants the warmonger weapons), it means that he can't upgrade any piece of gear until he has enough favor to buy the warmonger marks for the weapon ( and most likely, upgrade it too ).

    The warmonger 2handers costs 24 warmonger marks, i.e. 2.4 million favors.
    If you play 5 characters, that's 12 millions favors. Ok, if you play ranged rogue the bow is only 12 I think, but still, at 12m I'm not counting upgrades and offhands, so let's keep it at that.

    I hear people talking about getting 11k favors in a warfront, but that's not the norm (especially considering the lost warfronts, and the small warfronts with a small amount of kills).

    From what I've seen, the average for all players on a WF (both teams) seems to be more around 3k.

    12 million favors at 3k a warfront means 4000 warfronts.
    4000 warfronts at, say, 15 minutes per warfront(including queue times and startup times and all that) means 60000 minutes, or 1000 hours.

    So, for a player who plays all classes, for a thousand hours of PVP he won't have any PVP weapons ( now that they don't even drop anymore ) or any upgrade over the basic gear... which is not only bad compared to the upgraded pvp gear, is even worse compared to the PVE one.

    Now I just feel like stopping playing most of my characters (only keep one or two) because the cost of buying/upgrading everything is insane. a 3 hours a day, 1000 hours would take me a year. Most people don't even play that much. And that's 3 hours a day of pvp, no NMR, no rep grind, no platinum farming, nothing other than PVP.

    I'm a returning player, and back then (at release, and some time after that) I used the play a lot of alts, and was pvp'ing with them all, and I could see the progress. Every few days, I would buy a new item, I would see my character's stats improving constantly.

    Now? We're talking weeks or even months of saving favors without buying/upgrading anything at all, so you can buy the weapon.

    This **** will make people stop playing alts altogether, just like they're apparently doing with raids.

    The main difference in now/before...
    Before, I could play all characters and still progress. So I was enjoying a bunch of different gameplay experiences.
    Now, if I play the exact same amount of time I did before, and I want to progress as fast as before, I have to play a single one. So, do the same thing over and over and over and over again on just 1 character. And even then, it still won't be as fast as it was before.
    Even on 1 character, it's still what, 100-200 hours? that's still a couple months of gaming. I don't recall having to wait even just weeks between gear upgrades while playing with 4+ characters back then.

    One of Rift's strength is diversity. You can play a bunch of classes with a bunch of specs.
    Only, everyone plays the same 3-4 specs on every classes, and now you're pretty much forcing people into playing only 1 class.

    Not so diverse anymore.
    I just bought the primalist and... I don't even know if I can afford to keep on playing him.
    I mean if I want to get the weapons for my other characters at some point in 2016.

    Everything that was fun and diverse before, now just seems repetitive and grindy.
    It wasn't so long before, why does it have to be long now?
    To keep people on the game, keep them hooked on?
    But you don't do that by having them complete chores. You do that by having them do something fun.

    MMO's are in a big part about progression, and having to play hundreds of warfronts without upgrading a single piece of gear is just not fun.

    And if you play all classes the game is offering, now it's thousand/s of warfronts.

    I have the feeling that (as for the raiders) many will drop their alts because they can't farm all this anymore, but when they're done, what then?
    After months and months of favor farming, will they be willing to do it all over again for an alt, hundreds of gaming before having any progress? or will they just quit it?

    Having the warmonger items cost the same currency as the upgrades was a bad idea, especially considering how much it cost. Before the warmonger update you still wanted to get&upgrade your weapon first, but back then it didn't take you months to do it. Playing alts was reasonable then. Now? Not so much, at least now for newcomers who start from scratch... and these are the ones that can keep the game running.

    Now it seems like whatever these new players will want to do, they'll see the grind wall in front of them.
    Want to get the best raid gear? Better shell out 10,000's plats to gear up.
    Want to get the best pvp gear? Better accept the fact that your weapons will suck for hundreds of hours of gameplay and all your gear will be sub-par until you get those weapons. ( upgrading the gear before you get the weapons would be even worse, pushing back the most important item ).
    Gearing alts has gotten progressively longer as the game "advances". Sign of a dying game with grabs for your cash is basically the blunt way of putting things, in all honesty. Inevitably destroys the game, "progressively" as it were with each update.

    I quit for months, started playing again, then quit again in an ever increasing shorter amount of time. The update had me quitting again to be clear.

    Just jumping in to say, like almost all complaints that are logical, and quickly told to the game makers, the fix will come months away and as always for this game it seems, way too late. With so many people jumping ship you would think they would do things at a more fast pace rather then expect to change something way down the line and for that many people to come back vs. those that are leaving.

  5. #5
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    4,004

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LSUdogg View Post
    it really is ridiculous for those of us who like playing our alts just as much as our mains. a week or so ago, i was so determined to finally get and upgrade my first warmonger dagger (which was an upgrade from the empowered dreambreaker sword- because a damn dagger never even dropped for me) that i grinded out 700k favor in a week... besides still playing my alts. i haven't even logged on to rift since. the burnout is real.
    Maybe time to realize you are playing a huge grind anymore. Game became the same thing to me - I just realized I was playing to grind things and not just playing for fun. If you are well-off though, you can get it before anyone else. There is that...lol.

  6. #6
    Plane Walker
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    458

    Default

    Pvp weeklies need to give favour, lots of it, 100k?
    Bolster wep needs to be dreambreaker equivalent.

  7. #7
    Soulwalker
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    18

    Default My thoughts

    I totally understand the feelings of the people above ,as i have one of each class myself but lets not forget what we had b4,absolutly nothing apart from recon vials for favor.
    Yes its far from perfect but trion are tryin,
    yes they dont get it rite but thier trying to improve pvp.
    I for one am glad at least something is being done with the promise of further improvements, changes in the coming months.
    I get mad at the inbalance of sides in wfs ,the bolstering system is shot and needs rebalancing.
    Many wfs have bad glitches, joining wfs only for them too finish 2 mins later if im lucky sometimes.Certain classes quite clearly op and 2 or 3 shottin me
    and next warfront im like a god!
    Its an MMO its going too have grinds tell me one that doesnt?
    But i love my pvp and am glad i have something to play for.
    If you play pvp regularly you will get the favor and warmonger gear if you dont you wont,is it a far sysytem, Yes i think it is!
    Maybe the amount and availability of the acms and favour is too high or not enuf .
    But we are at a stage now when people want too be spoonfed everything for little effort .
    We have instance lv 60 ,people not crafting their own weapons gettin someone in the guild too do it ,Instant adventures for fast leveling. Im not moanin thats just how it is these days.
    Ill see you on the battlefield .
    Thank you

  8. #8
    Sword of Telara
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    888

    Default

    I think your calculations might be off by a factor of ten: a warmonger's mark costs 100k favor each, so 12 of them costs 1200k favor which is 100h if you get favor at 12k/h.

    Even with the time ten times smaller, I feel the same way. For the cost, the weapons aren't even that great - if you ignore the proc (you can't really do this and have a fair comparison, admittedly, but it's not clear how big it actually is) and play a mage/cleric/primalist the stat upgrades of the weapon alone are a less efficient way to spend favor than upgrading any gear item from ephemeral with the exception of the trinket.

    You are (to the first of my knowledge) the first to start pulling numbers for favor rate on the weapons - and that's about the same numbers I would have gone for. If favor gain is 12k/h, it takes 200h to get a two-handed weapon (2400k favor). Alternatively, you could blow 15 REX on it, which also nets you a pile of loyalty and credits left over. Doing this would cost you 33000p (2200 each on NA). If you can make more than 165p/h then you'd get your prized PvP rewards faster than you could by grinding the favor, gain a lot of loyalty and have a few credits spare at the end. I'm sure gathering materials can't be that slow...

    I still can't see the logic in removing the weapons from the marauder's boxes. Getting rid of upbolstered weapons on a fresh character is a pain. You can only get one weapon from the nightmare saga, and then you're stuck unless you raid, throw marks (which just seems wasteful) at upgrading an expert drop or buying a store one, or chuck plat at a planar crafted upgrade (which is probably wasteful again).
    Last edited by Foolio; 01-04-2016 at 02:10 AM.
    Spellbook@Greybriar
    Rejuvenation@Greybriar

  9. #9
    Plane Walker Kartia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    453

    Default

    Slowly I give up on alts, and when I log in I just play rogue. Ganking in cq still fun. I bought primalist, but what for? They nerfed after 2 weeks. I gave up on cleric first, then warrior too, mage still 50 and probably stay 50 for the end of rift. Every time when I upgrade a gear piece it cost me hundreds-thousands plat. Amenders, orbs, runes.

    Few already complained against this huge grind both in pvp and pve, but I didn't see any change just promises.

    Don't want grind? Buy BIS pvp weapon from shop. Easy! Or buy vials, warfront charges, dope. Rift purely a crash grab recently. For example look at crafting ingredients on store. You can choose: buy for real money, or play rng and do crs for hours. Or upgrade parts for credit. You don't want to grind for weeks? No problem, buy it for real money.

  10. #10
    Champion of Telara Ongar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    1,268

    Default

    My "bread and butter" in MMOs are Progress Raiding and Competitive PvP.

    When they added more and more grinds in Storm Legion that are mandatory to be competitive, I decided to stop any serious raiding in Rift and concentrate on PvP.

    Now I would have to amass the favour I got from Classic+ SL + NT combined, no not for a full BiS PvP Set, but just for a Twohander and Ranged weapon. I know that there are people out there that dont mind mindnumbing grinds, but I do.

    From my perspective 3 things need to happen for Rift PvP:

    1. Small scale, structured, competitive PvP.
    2. Large Scale, epic, siege warfare PvP.
    3. Gear progression at a reasonable pace.

    And while 1+2 would be long time endeavours as there is no "magic button" to press to make it happen, for 3 there is. And a minor tweak like 10 % cost reduction wont help, we need a fundamental direction change.

  11. #11
    Plane Walker Kartia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    453

    Default

    I wouldn’t be so desperate but since we require grind favor for hours each days for weeks to get the weapon set, and after to upgrade them to get the set bonus (and I don't even mention new players have to upgrade their general gear too) and it wouldn’t feel me simple cash grab if:
    1. They would add daily pvp quest again
    2. They would add daily cq quest again
    3. They would add favor to weekly (what a numb thing weekly doesn’t give favor, is it bug or intended?)
    4. They would add back pvp rifts and support Owpvp. Trading kills doesn’t count! I still remember doing these in back vanilla rift we had the knowledge they can ambush us in any minute. Not a single pve content raid/dungeon boss kill can be compared to that feeling.
    5. They would increase favor gain from killing each other
    6. They would do ANYTHING to increase our favor earning despite buying vials from shop. But nothing above happened so my opinion is clear on this issue.
    Last edited by Kartia; 01-04-2016 at 03:59 AM.

  12. #12
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,485

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LSUdogg View Post
    it really is ridiculous for those of us who like playing our alts just as much as our mains. a week or so ago, i was so determined to finally get and upgrade my first warmonger dagger (which was an upgrade from the empowered dreambreaker sword- because a damn dagger never even dropped for me) that i grinded out 700k favor in a week... besides still playing my alts. i haven't even logged on to rift since. the burnout is real.
    I hear you. I'm thinking of just playing one character now, but It might come to the same thing. Burned out of the grind, or... You know, just not enjoying it anymore. People who plays many alts do so because they like diversity, but now the game is really forcing them against it.

    I understand that yeah, obviously, by playing alts my progress will be slower, but my main frustration with the new system is that until you get the weapons, the progress isn't just slower, it's inexistant.


    You get the full set of dreambreaker gear real fast, and you get next to the 'BIS' dreambreaker pieces soon after by remplacing some endurance by some main stats, etc...
    And then, you don't change a single piece of gear for weeks or months, waiting for the weapon. There's not a single thing that changes on your character for months. This is bad.
    You don't feel any progression. Just grinding toward a very long goal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Horgrym View Post
    Pvp weeklies need to give favour, lots of it, 100k?
    Bolster wep needs to be dreambreaker equivalent.
    Well they could've fixed both those issues easily :
    1) By actually making dreambreaker weapons drop. They're still garbage compared to the warmonger, so why did they remove them? People who get them as drop would still want the warmonger anyway.
    2) By making warmonger marks a different currency/system than the upgradable items.
    They could've made warmonger a new currency, you get one for every 20 warfront wins.
    Or you get one with the pvp weekly.
    ANYTHING other than buying them from favors. By having them be the same currency as the one you use to upgrade, they basically stalled everyone's upgrade progression. And that's the only progression we had after the handful of games you need to get a full set of gear. So you don't even progress anymore. you just watch your favor number go up without improving your stats in any way.

    There would've been many ways to make the warmonger system right.Having it be a new currency (not just a 'bunch of favors'), or having it be a reward for quest, and that would've been a HUGE improvement over the current system. Of course the grind would still be just as long, but while you grind you would actually upgrade your gear, have the feeling of progression. Instead of the current "Cool I got the best (base) PVP helm! With a bit of luck I'll start upgrading it in 3 or 4 months".

    If warmongers were not earned in favors, you could start upgrading it right away. Would give you something to do while you work toward the real, big grind.

    And at last.. as someone mentioned...
    'Well at least we have something, before all we had were recon vials!'

    Well, that's another thing. Now everytime you want to buy these vials, you push back your warmonger weapons.
    So not only you must accept to play with basic dreambreaker gear for a long time to get your weapon ASAP, you must also decide between :
    a) Not use these game-changing consumables
    or
    b) Use them at the expense of getting your weapons later

    That's why you don't put **** like that on the same currencies, it brings so many problems.
    At least you don't, when you're talking about hundreds of hours of gameplay to get the #1 thing to get.

    And (aside from the obvious cash grab) I think the reason they did that is to give those who had fully upgraded PVP gear something to do...
    But for those players, a new currency system wouldn't have made a difference with what they have now.

    The only people to whom it makes a difference, is those who are not fully geared, and the difference it makes for them is to really screw them over, and make it MUCH longer for them to catch up with the top-geared... which I think was the exact opposite that what Trion wanted to achieve with this update (something about boosting base gear to the tier 2(pvp tier 2) so new players have it easier or something). New players have it just as bad with the basic gear ( they have tier 2 vs the other player's tier 4 of pvp gear, compare to the former tier 1 vs their tier 3 - same difference ), but now they don't get a weapon, AND they don't get to upgrade the tier 2 items anymore for a very long time. It's even worse than before. At least before you could start upgrading your ephemeral items right away, and slowly catch up with the guys in frenetic.

    This update seriously screwed over people starting from scratch.
    And if new players are discouraged by that 'no progression grind' and leave the game... Well what happens to game with no new player influx? Old players quit at some point. New players should be cherished and led through a good progression process, not slammed into a months-long grind wall just to get ONE good piece of gear for ONE character.

    I feel very sorry for a new player who'd come into the game, make 5 characters, level them all to 65 together, and then realize how long it'll be for him to get them all a warmonger weapon.
    Last edited by somerandomnamee; 01-04-2016 at 05:14 AM.

  13. #13
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    70

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrastion View Post
    Maybe time to realize you are playing a huge grind anymore. Game became the same thing to me - I just realized I was playing to grind things and not just playing for fun. If you are well-off though, you can get it before anyone else. There is that...lol.
    + this, I have a warmonger weapon, and it is upgraded, It is feasible to obtain but the grind and time input required is pretty obscene. I will not be doing it again for sure. They know this and it was designed like this for the simple reason they want you to buy the weapons with cash.

  14. #14
    Soulwalker
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    20

    Default

    Before warmonger details were announced, I used a large portion of my tokens to upgrade the weapons on my 4 alts to frenetic. I had an angry moment I debated quitting, thinking about what essentially amounted to a wasted expenditure. It's certainly my choice to play 5 characters, and to not spend enough time on weeklies on all of them that I'm constantly behind in gear, but it definitely feels like the grind is getting to be more and more of a burden.

    Luckily, I think I'm one of only a handful of people left that actually enjoys warfronts for nothing more than fun. It can certainly be frustrating though when my alts are around 2600 ELO but in mostly dreambreaker armor, I'm not able to help carry warfronts like I am on my main. Still hoping the gearing system is tweaked a bit.

  15. #15
    Rift Chaser DeLivia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Posts
    388

    Default

    The cost for the new weapons is so high because casuals who either don't care to, or have time to grind it all out are supposed to purchase favor potions from the store with cash, or just cave in and buy the weapons instantly.

    It was a cash grab. Otherwise, the already existing weapons would have been upgradable to T2.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts