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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: ELO - A personal rating of things I have no control over - Why

  1. #76
    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hailolyergory View Post
    Every character starts with a 1500 ELO and then it changes from there based on wins and losses.

    A lot of the people with 3 or 4 ELO are older PvPers who did a bunch of DPS when they factored DPS into ELO.
    That's not true. Ocho has said before that the old elo that factored in damage/healing has no impact on the current elo.
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  2. #77
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    Sorry, I used Google translator for this message. I consider myself a good player and guided only by the PVP content. I am interested in the answer to the following question:

    I have a 1342 ELO, ranked 78 and 46.3% of victories in nearly one thousand battles. I understand that statistics are not very big, but ... According to statistics, if I'm going to stand the entire fight and do nothing, I have to be 50% to 50%?

    Why in this case I have only 46.3% of victories? My rating is not important for me and I have no team. However, I try to do for the overall victory. As a result, the percentage of victories is even worse than the one who does not do anything to win.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valet View Post
    Sorry, I used Google translator for this message. I consider myself a good player and guided only by the PVP content. I am interested in the answer to the following question:

    I have a 1342 ELO, ranked 78 and 46.3% of victories in nearly one thousand battles. I understand that statistics are not very big, but ... According to statistics, if I'm going to stand the entire fight and do nothing, I have to be 50% to 50%?

    Why in this case I have only 46.3% of victories? My rating is not important for me and I have no team. However, I try to do for the overall victory. As a result, the percentage of victories is even worse than the one who does not do anything to win.
    nobody who afks has 50/50. Lack of participation is probably the biggest factors in causing your team to lose

  4. #79
    Ascendant butkus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artewig View Post
    That's not true. Ocho has said before that the old elo that factored in damage/healing has no impact on the current elo.
    i remember that quote from ocho well as it was a direct response to a poster trying to be a wise *** to me.
    Last edited by butkus; 11-07-2015 at 08:22 AM.
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  5. #80
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    After reading a few more forum posts on ELO, including the closed thread on “How ELO works in Rift”, I decided to follow the recommendation of reading more on how ELO works, it’s history and the math involved with it. I was enlightened by the many articles that were available. However, the ELO system was developed by a tournament chess master, for ranking chess players. It is a system designed to rank one on one player skill. As far as a “team” ranking system all articles say the same basic thing as the quoted article below;
    “ELO, in several variants, is the best studied and most used competitive ranking system. It works particularly well as a matching system. However, even ELO has flaws in it, among them: issues with new player rankings; its core two-player basis; its lack of provisions for teams; a few minor subjective elements; and problems with cheaters. New systems continue to be rolled out on the Internet to resolve these issues, and overall, it's an area of interesting new study.”
    From, http://www.lifewithalacrity.com/2006...g_systems.html
    There are other systems that have been developed to address the particular challenges of teams and individuals ranking within the teams, Microsoft’s TrueSkill being the most often mentioned.
    Another article discussed what was referred to as the weak and strong “fun” factor and how this relates to on line gaming, PvP in particular. It states that using the wrong type of rating/ranking system defeats the players “fun” by placing players incorrectly. The weaker players are discouraged because the incorrect rankings places them on teams where the opposing players can too easily defeat them ( a result of placing higher ranked players on the opposing team in an effort to average the teams out) and reduces the “fun” factor for skilled players (strong) by removing any challenges (the opposite of the weak players dilemma). The result of using an inappropriate rating system is the eventual loss of the player base, because who wants to play a game that is not “fun”.
    After all of this reading, I have to agree with these articles that yes ELO is a great system, it has been around for nearly 75 years. I also agree that the ELO system was not intended to be used for players on teams. Perhaps it is time to take a look into some of the systems of rating that were specifically implemented for use with team play. I’m not going to try to tell anyone how that should be done. I also agree with the article about how the system is not working if the “fun” seems to be gone. After all, isn't that why Rift exists, as something to have fun with?
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  6. #81
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justa Opinion View Post
    Another article discussed what was referred to as the weak and strong “fun” factor and how this relates to on line gaming, PvP in particular. It states that using the wrong type of rating/ranking system defeats the players “fun” by placing players incorrectly. The weaker players are discouraged because the incorrect rankings places them on teams where the opposing players can too easily defeat them ( a result of placing higher ranked players on the opposing team in an effort to average the teams out) and reduces the “fun” factor for skilled players (strong) by removing any challenges (the opposite of the weak players dilemma). The result of using an inappropriate rating system is the eventual loss of the player base, because who wants to play a game that is not “fun”.
    this ^^

    this is what has happened in Rift.
    however, I'm not sure the remaining player base can produce a system that separates weak and strong players.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    this ^^

    this is what has happened in Rift.
    however, I'm not sure the remaining player base can produce a system that separates weak and strong players.
    i think it was planned as a response to the massive loss of pvpers after 3.0. i do not see many names i know around anymore,so i ask myself who replaced them?past few weeks i been looking at peoples toons/gear in wfs if its a blow out.i noticed a ton of players at max level missing ear rings,trinkets,crystals, lessors and the like.this for the most part is what replaced the pvpers who left. that = bad game play and they needed a way to off set it. not saying they are bad because of gear,im saying they just dont have a clue how things work.
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  8. #83
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    in defense to some players (but this has to be a very small % of the wf contestants), my alts are struggling to get geared because that's all i do is pvp. this is exactly why just about every other game that has pvp have vendors specifically for pvp gear. i have the favor tokens coming out the wazoo but can't use them to upgrade anything because i'm not getting anything to upgrade. that's the 2nd most frustrating thing with these wfs.
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  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    this ^^

    this is what has happened in Rift.
    however, I'm not sure the remaining player base can produce a system that separates weak and strong players.
    Again...
    How about trying random? Let's give it a try, say for 2 weeks. What's the harm? What's the cost?

  10. #85
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    So I'm not at all convinced that we have a working system in Rift. Like today I think I had 4 straight, pretty bad, losses, which in theory should be rare!

    But for those interested in facts, and as a (reluctant, I admit) hats off to devs, this is something I found that says yes, Elo does work even with random teams. However it doesn't say that it makes sense in combination with a matchmaker.I suspect that opens a can of worms.

    https://www.aaai.org/ocs/index.php/W...File/7116/6754

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashgaroth View Post
    Again...
    How about trying random? Let's give it a try, say for 2 weeks. What's the harm? What's the cost?
    Without knowing the number of Rift players who are queuing up for pvp at a given time, it is difficult to know that we don't already have a free for all system (random). A matchmaker can only create true matched teams if there are enough people of various ranking available for the system to actually average out into two teams. The ranking system no longer matters when there are not enough players to sample and create teams from. I have to agree with both Kronos and Butkus, that the player base has already diminished greatly in numbers. From the teams I have been on lately, I'd say it's already a pretty random queue.
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  12. #87
    Soulwalker Vairocana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justa Opinion View Post
    Another article discussed what was referred to as the weak and strong “fun” factor and how this relates to on line gaming, PvP in particular. It states that using the wrong type of rating/ranking system defeats the players “fun” by placing players incorrectly. The weaker players are discouraged because the incorrect rankings places them on teams where the opposing players can too easily defeat them ( a result of placing higher ranked players on the opposing team in an effort to average the teams out) and reduces the “fun” factor for skilled players (strong) by removing any challenges (the opposite of the weak players dilemma). The result of using an inappropriate rating system is the eventual loss of the player base, because who wants to play a game that is not “fun”.
    This is precisely why I stopped doing PvP in Rift.

    I'm fortunate because there are other activities in this game that I do still enjoy. I feel for the players who play PvP primarily, or exclusively, and I hope something can be done to bring more PvPers back to the game. I doubt there is any solution that doesn't involve an increase in the number of players whose interest in PvP goes beyond raid currency.

  13. #88
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butkus View Post
    i think it was planned as a response to the massive loss of pvpers after 3.0. i do not see many names i know around anymore,so i ask myself who replaced them?past few weeks i been looking at peoples toons/gear in wfs if its a blow out.i noticed a ton of players at max level missing ear rings,trinkets,crystals, lessors and the like.this for the most part is what replaced the pvpers who left. that = bad game play and they needed a way to off set it. not saying they are bad because of gear,im saying they just dont have a clue how things work.
    Rift already had a weak/strong population problem back in SL, when you could have matches that started as "ranked" based on prestige rank (with floating prestige rank groupings). matches would start with five players on each team within the rank grouping (eg: P50-60) but then the match would become unranked if there were only lowbies remaining to fill it.
    not as big a deal back then, because the players in warfronts at the time wanted to be there. they were not forced to be there like they are now.

    Elo was introduced during SL to replace that system, then 3.0 came along with its gear unification (which is what caused large numbers of pvpers to leave) and its "you will play every aspect of the game or suffer horribly" policy causing even more players to leave (not just pvpers) and flooding warfronts with players who do not want to be there, have no interest in pvp and no desire to improve how they perform in pvp.

    pvp could be "improved" if players who didn't want to be there didn't have to be there, in the same way that a ghost town is an "improvement" over a leper colony.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  14. #89
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    What they could do is turn PvP zones (warfronts/CQ) into sandboxes. Make all gear the same tier, differing only in what stat-type a player chooses. In fact, give us a PvP wardrobe so we can customize stats like some other MMOs do for their PvP.

  15. #90
    Shield of Telara Cygfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeCreaux View Post
    What they could do is turn PvP zones (warfronts/CQ) into sandboxes. Make all gear the same tier, differing only in what stat-type a player chooses. In fact, give us a PvP wardrobe so we can customize stats like some other MMOs do for their PvP.
    I second this. Spvp in gw2 does exactly this - I don't see the harm in adding a WF where gear is exclusively normalized (or stats are, anyway) so that everyone is on exact same footing.

    Moreover, having pve currency come from pvp (and vice versa - the whole 'gear is gear' approach) is probably the most idiotic thing that I've seen happen in Rift since its inception. Like I'm fine with pvp gear being subpar to pve gear - but it should then be significantly better for pvp to offset this. This would solve the issue of players being 'forced' into pve or pvp.

    As for actual ELO, at this point I think there is not enough people to even make any kind of meaningful inference as to its effectiveness. When the MM is literally shuffling the same pool of players back and forth, the stats are going to be biased.
    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    Keeping a thread going with half truths, ignorance, bias, and an inability to understand even the most basic elements of pvp is not going to get anything nerfed.

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