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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Bronze Tomb WF META "Tie" Suggestion

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Bronze Tomb WF META "Tie" Suggestion

    I hope this has already been suggested and this is just a redundant thread, but if not...

    TLR - If Bronze Tomb players adopted the meta that in case of an impending tie, the defending team would stop defending and let the attackers win, say in the last 30 seconds or whenever it makes sense to, at least half the players would walk away with a loot chest instead of none of the players. I don't know if this is worth trying to promote, but I guess that's what this thread is here to discuss?

    (Info on bronze tomb via google search for "bronze tomb guide"> Assault Bronze Tomb Pvp Guide)

    So in the Warfront: Assault on Bronze Tomb, a "Tie" can occur if neither side is able to take an equivalent objective - usually the last point but theoretically first or second point might produce ties as well. In a Tie, NEITHER SIDE GETS LOOT. I don't know how favor/xp/prestige is split up in a tie vs win/loss.

    Question: Do you get much less favor/xp/prestige if you lose in the last few seconds vs tie? Anyone have numbers?

    I guess basically I was thinking it'd be better for everyone overall if instead of letting games tie - if a tie is about to happen, the defending team stops defending and lets the attacking team win so at least half of the players get a chest instead of no players. This would obviously increase the overall number of chests given out by the total number of Bronze Tomb matches.

    I dunno, I guess this is from a view point of a player who thinks solo queue PuG pvp in this game can be pretty difficult to enjoy and the loot is one of the few reasons to play so when you spend 18 (8+8+extra) or so minutes in Bronze Tomb and nobody walks away with a chest, it seems a like a disappointing waste of time. And as the defending team, at that point you can't *win* anyway, all you can do is force a tie OR graciously, and intelligenty work together to make sure at least some of your fellow Rift Gamers get to walk away from that match with some loot.

    I imagine it would only take a handful of defenders to back off to let the horde of attackers kill off any opposition.
    If someone starts spamming, "Help your fellow gamers get loot, stop defending last point to avoid a lose-lose tie!", it might be enough to convince people.

    Kinda reminds me of trying to get people to cooperate on TF2 to finish Halloween Contracts... "GUYS, FOR THE LOVE OF GABEN, PLEASE STOP KILLING EACHOTHER AND JUST FOCUS ON THE MONOCULUS! I HAVE A VERY IMPORTANT CONTRACT TO COMPLETE!"
    Last edited by Ameliora; 10-31-2015 at 01:20 AM.

  2. #2
    Soulwalker
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    Back in the day, when it Guardians vs Defiants, I felt more motivated to always win, mostly out of kind of basic role playing and lack of loot boxes. But now that teams are mixed, the only real opposition keeping you from obtaining more overall loot boxes are Trion's PvP Devs, which in this case, can be outplayed.

    You might even have guildies or friends on the other team.

    Or just stand have a dps + pocket healer stand up on the ledges and aoe the point anytime someone tries to cap. Either way.
    Last edited by Ameliora; 10-31-2015 at 03:14 AM.

  3. #3
    Rift Chaser DeLivia's Avatar
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    Or they could... you know, try to fix it instead.

    The easiest thing would be to change the way players interact with the objectives, namely remove the hour long channel that get's interruped if you take even 1 damage.

    In theory, the way the map works may have looked like a good idea, but in practice, it just doesn't work very well. Trying to convince people to give up and let the opposing team win is, if you ask me, a very bad idea. PvP in Rift already suffers greatly from people who don't want to PvP, but feel forced to and thus give up the whole match because they suffered a minor loss ten seconds into the game.

    The fact that the game so often ends in a tie should give Trion some idea that the map doesn't quite work as planned.

  4. #4
    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
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    But my ELO..............

    I definitely agree that rather than having players not pvp to fix an issue in pvp Trion should figure out a way (with help from the community) so that it happens far less often.
    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse
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  5. #5
    Sword of Telara
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    The problems I have are:

    1. There's often not enough time to stop attackers taking points in the second room immediately after the first. If losing a room gave defenders a speed boost for a while it'd be great.
    2. The step up in difficulty between the 2nd and 3rd room is too large. You go from 2 points about a minimap's distance away to one point with extremely powerful defence cannons. The 2nd room isn't much more difficult to take than the first, yet the third is virtually impossible. Making the 2nd room harder to take and/or making the 3rd significantly easier would be quite useful.
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  6. #6
    Soulwalker
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    (Jokingly) Since when has saying and thinking "the solution is, Trion should fix... [pvp content]" ever resulted in anything other than disappointment?

    It's just one of those "prisoner's dilema" type situations - in this case you choose between:
    1) A tie, no loot for anyone, no winning daily completion, etc.
    2) A win/forfeit, loot for half, daily completion, achieve win count, etc

    I definitely agree with, "But my ELO..." and "We don't really want players getting more in the mood for forfeiting and giving up early."

    I just thought it'd be fun to see as a social experiment if you could actually get people to cooperate for this one case - "The no-last cap for either team 18 minute stalemate tie on Bronze Tomb". I'd only want Defenders to give up at the last 30 seconds but to have played to uh... I was gonna say "win" but I suppose at that point the best you can do is not "lose"... but if your team is clearly able to hold em off last point - which is pretty easy if you just play L.o.S. peekaboo with aoe spam on the final cap point from the ledges up top - I figured, why not let em cap so at least someone walks away with a loot box.

    If I thought saying, "Trion should fix this" would accomplish anything, this thread would have been a redundant waste of time as plenty of people have already suggested they rework Assault on Bronze Tomb. Along with many other WFs. And I guess that's along with fixing PvP in general. Hahaha, I almost forgot reworking Conquest. Lol.
    Last edited by Ameliora; 10-31-2015 at 06:04 AM.

  7. #7
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    or maybe random players could all agree to try and start working together as a team for the first time ever in this game...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    or maybe random players could all agree to try and start working together as a team for the first time ever in this game...
    Lol. Yeah, it's pretty rare you see a whole team of PuGs cooperate and do work together. But it's pretty common you see 1 or more players "cooperating" to do nothing (afk in spawn) and sometimes all it takes is a player or two sitting out to cause an imbalance and give the opposing team the win and loot chest.
    Last edited by Ameliora; 10-31-2015 at 09:02 AM.

  9. #9
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ameliora View Post
    So you have dicks in the one hand and Trion PvP Devs on the other. You're screwed either way.
    his sentiment is entirely relevant, though.
    standing aside so another team can auto win goes against the entire ethos of pvp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  10. #10
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Riane's Avatar
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    If the game is going to end in a tie, then that's what the outcome is going to be. If you want to win, you win. Letting the other team "win" so there is no tie is asinine.

    Just don't queue for PVP at that point.

  11.   This is the last Rift Team post in this thread.   #11
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    Hello folks. This topic has been mentioned in a few other threads, and I've posted some things in those threads already but Ill recap it here.

    There have been too many ties in this warfront. We are working in a fix currently. Due to the nature of this warfront it's a code fix and engineers are working on it. No ETA, but it should be soon.

    In the mean time I've made a few changes to the map, such as adding line of sight blocks to the final room's defender start area. This should force defenders down to the main level to defend, or put them at the front edge of the platform where Attackers can reach them from their upper tier and a wider portion of the main floor.

    The cannons will respect line of sight now and not be able to shoot through walls.

    I've added a Personal Defense Shield to the map. This gives you 30 seconds of immunity to the Ancient Defense Cannons and AE abilities from players (single target still hits you), but reduces your outgoing damage and healing by 90% as well as your healing received by 90%. It's not and is not intended to be, an "I win" button, you will need help to make it work. Someone will need to keep you alive to cap the final room.

    As far as the second room being hard to get back to; there has been, since the map launched, 3 portals in the main room that only the defenders can see and use that teleport you to the second room’s graveyard. Step on a portal, be where you need to be to defend. Maybe try them out from time to time. I know it's much easier to come here and be caustic but learning the map, its nuances and flow, would go a long way. As would teamwork, because this map isn't going to be won by solo kamikaze heroes, it's going to be won by teams that work together.
    Michael Hansen
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  12. #12
    Sword of Telara
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    Sounds good, but one thing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerilar View Post
    As far as the second room being hard to get back to; there has been, since the map launched, 3 portals in the main room that only the defenders can see and use that teleport you to the second room’s graveyard. Step on a portal, be where you need to be to defend. Maybe try them out from time to time. I know it's much easier to come here and be caustic but learning the map, its nuances and flow, would go a long way. As would teamwork, because this map isn't going to be won by solo kamikaze heroes, it's going to be won by teams that work together.
    It doesn't matter whether something exists or not, it's whether enough of the playerbase knows about it that is important. I'd seen only one portal as a defender before, and that was right near the spawn if memory serves.

    Certain Ghar station eggs being worth 3x as much as others (and the serious map asymmetry sometimes), elites in Scion's church being 20pts each... Most people just don't know this stuff, and it seriously affects how the game plays when you throw random matchmaking into the mix. This stuff can win or lose games, if you're the only one on your team who is actually trying vs multiple enemy players, it's not going to end well.

    Of course, your team probably deserves to lose in such cases, but as a solo queued player that's no fun, and if there are other solutions which work (IE, movespeed buff after 1st room of tombs) then is it not worth considering?
    Last edited by Foolio; 10-31-2015 at 06:28 PM.
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  13. #13
    Ascendant Xclvsive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ameliora View Post
    (Jokingly) Since when has saying and thinking "the solution is, Trion should fix... [pvp content]" ever resulted in anything other than disappointment?

    It's just one of those "prisoner's dilema" type situations - in this case you choose between:
    1) A tie, no loot for anyone, no winning daily completion, etc.
    2) A win/forfeit, loot for half, daily completion, achieve win count, etc

    I definitely agree with, "But my ELO..." and "We don't really want players getting more in the mood for forfeiting and giving up early."

    I just thought it'd be fun to see as a social experiment if you could actually get people to cooperate for this one case - "The no-last cap for either team 18 minute stalemate tie on Bronze Tomb". I'd only want Defenders to give up at the last 30 seconds but to have played to uh... I was gonna say "win" but I suppose at that point the best you can do is not "lose"... but if your team is clearly able to hold em off last point - which is pretty easy if you just play L.o.S. peekaboo with aoe spam on the final cap point from the ledges up top - I figured, why not let em cap so at least someone walks away with a loot box.

    If I thought saying, "Trion should fix this" would accomplish anything, this thread would have been a redundant waste of time as plenty of people have already suggested they rework Assault on Bronze Tomb. Along with many other WFs. And I guess that's along with fixing PvP in general. Hahaha, I almost forgot reworking Conquest. Lol.
    Very informative post 10/10

    /sarcasm
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  14. #14
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foolio View Post
    Sounds good, but one thing...



    It doesn't matter whether something exists or not, it's whether enough of the playerbase knows about it that is important. I'd seen only one portal as a defender before, and that was right near the spawn if memory serves.

    Certain Ghar station eggs being worth 3x as much as others (and the serious map asymmetry sometimes), elites in Scion's church being 20pts each... Most people just don't know this stuff, and it seriously affects how the game plays when you throw random matchmaking into the mix. This stuff can win or lose games, if you're the only one on your team who is actually trying vs multiple enemy players, it's not going to end well.

    Of course, your team probably deserves to lose in such cases, but as a solo queued player that's no fun, and if there are other solutions which work (IE, movespeed buff after 1st room of tombs) then is it not worth considering?
    unfortunately, its been like this with every warfront map since the begging.
    even after guides were written by the players....

    how many of your team in a whitefall map know the stone spawn pattern and spawn timer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  15. #15
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Riane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    unfortunately, its been like this with every warfront map since the begging.
    even after guides were written by the players....

    how many of your team in a whitefall map know the stone spawn pattern and spawn timer?
    This is where I think in-game tips would help. But I think most would just perma x out of it as a newbie and not even care to read.

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