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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Ocho please submit for a reset ELO

  1. #61
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alystria View Post
    Here's my suggestion:
    1. A player cannot change their role while in a warfront. If you come in as a tank, dps, support or healer... you stay that way. This would help in the matching system a bit in regards to the fact that 8/10 times in a random pug there are no heals. We all know what happens with no heals. Sure, sometimes it works out and you win. Most of the time, no. Yes, I realize what this means. It means that if you do a random warfront and it's healing intensive you might want to switch from being a dps to a healer. However, if ALL warfront groups contain the same amount of player types then this won't be an issue either.
    not the first time this suggestion has been made, and it is still just as terrible with absolutely zero justification and the complete antithesis of Rifts Soul System.
    players need to be encouraged to use more specs in pvp, not restricted to less.
    part of the problem with Rifts terrible state of pvp is the players, and one of the areas that players could improve upon is in utilizing the Soul System to their advantage (this doesn't mean there is room for improvement on Trions end).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    It looked that way to me too. I spent hours tracking down all sorts of information on numerous particular examples, because I thought "this doesn't make sense to me and I don't understand". And the answers kept coming back "that example is correct, here are the records".

    When it comes right down, the best way to test if it works is accuracy. Does it produce more even matchmaking and less outliers than other systems. And over large swaths of data you can see that it is pretty darn accurate.
    the wins aren't enjoyable ocho. the "even" games that are wins (if they aren't a blowout), or at least close, are stressful or unfun because it feels as if i have to do everything to get the win, not because the other team is amazing, but because half my teammates don't even like pvp and/or don't even know what to do to win.

    there's a lot you could do to remedy this, like adding more documentation and tutorials in game to explain warfront objectives and how they distribute points. one of the major contributing factors to these frustrating wins/losses seems to be players who don't know that one control point gives more points than another, or that npc's in port scion give points, or that the control points in blighted don't give enough points to pull off a win. the complete lack of knowledge on players' parts and lack of documentation inside of rift always has been a huge issue to me and it could be solved quite easily by providing this kind of information in game, possibly in the warfront tab, or by requiring players to go through a short tutorial before they queue for warfronts.
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  3.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #63
    Rift Team Ocho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecru View Post
    the wins aren't enjoyable ocho. the "even" games that are wins (if they aren't a blowout), or at least close, are stressful or unfun because it feels as if i have to do everything to get the win, not because the other team is amazing, but because half my teammates don't even like pvp and/or don't even know what to do to win.

    there's a lot you could do to remedy this, like adding more documentation and tutorials in game to explain warfront objectives and how they distribute points. one of the major contributing factors to these frustrating wins/losses seems to be players who don't know that one control point gives more points than another, or that npc's in port scion give points, or that the control points in blighted don't give enough points to pull off a win. the complete lack of knowledge on players' parts and lack of documentation inside of rift always has been a huge issue to me and it could be solved quite easily by providing this kind of information in game, possibly in the warfront tab, or by requiring players to go through a short tutorial before they queue for warfronts.
    These are the kinds of suggestions I am looking for!

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecru View Post
    i think you misunderstood what's actually being discussed in this thread. the argument being made was that an individual cannot actually carry a warfront without half decent teammates because rift simply doesn't allow it, so grouping them with non-contributors is counterproductive towards everyone's overall gameplay experience because this system doesn't provide you any positive reinforcement for contributing. the more you win, the more you're expected to stop pvping and start babysitting your own team.

    as for win rates, i don't think i lost a random or captain 2on2 or 4on4 outside of my clan in qw for a period of years, i carried every CA match i was in, and so do other players in other games.

    Yea but how many of those wins were from working up the ladder? Look at his last 20 games, he's 9-11

  5. #65
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    I think this thread is heading towards a solid post stating...

    "You can't patch, fix, or update suck."

    At the end of the day, there's just too many poor players.
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  6. #66
    Ascendant SprawlnBrawl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    These are the kinds of suggestions I am looking for!
    Have you considered a timed queue that groups people of equal elo and expands out over time versus just taking people with very high and very low on same team? I think competent pvpers just want more matches with better players on both teams. Even if matches don't full up I'd rather have this
    Last edited by SprawlnBrawl; 07-17-2015 at 03:26 PM.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    These are the kinds of suggestions I am looking for!
    Glad to hear it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebucent
    The PvP in Rift could really benefit from proper ingame tutorials, too many players don't even know basic map objectives; and certain maps like Port Scion aren't clear cut and can be a bit confusing.

    My suggestion:

    Extra tutorial buttons right in the Warfront menu beside each map queue button. These buttons would port players to instanced versions of each Warfront map where map objectives would be clearly outlined and explained. This would also allow new/less experienced players to get a feel for each map before actually queueing up for them.

    There are a lot of enthusiastic players that are willing to/interested in learning, Rift just doesn't do a very good job at teaching them. I believe that this would be a step in the right direction and I see no real downside to something like this.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Resetting ELO makes matchmaking less accurate. A similar request was made a couple weeks ago, but very little reasoning was given on why things would be better with it reset. People question our ELO system's accuracy, but it's testable and pretty darn accurate.

    So if people can give reasons that this would be worth making matchmaking less accurate, I'm happy to pass them on. That being said, any reason that starts with the premise that it would improve accuracy won't be considered.
    So I've lost 10 games in a row - all of them out of my reach to win - most with a bad premade on my team.

    Some were games I joined into a codex that was already 4 capped against us.

    How can you possibly say ELO is accurate ? 11 losses where I personally had no chance to make an impact on the game


    Thats accurate guys.


    edit: Some constructive ****;

    Biggest problem with PvP in this game is it always feels like your teammates don't know what they are doing. the 5% of the time you DO get a team with all good players, its usually a blowout, and the other team gives up fairly quickly. They don't get kills, or a win. Why even bother?

    Not only that, but the weekly quest and random dailies (which , face it, the majority of PvP is happening because of these things), don't encourage TEAM or OBJECTIVE play...they want wins. And whats the best way to get wins ? Just que over and over hoping you will get carried. The general player doesn't think " I should play a PvP spec dominator, or play nightblade and camp a point, or play VK and pull people from the hill" The general player has no knowledge, doesn't care, and just wants the reward

    To the detriment of the people trying to actually enjoy PvP.

    And now that Premades show, I have noticed a new Trend. Now, we can see the reason our team is doing so bad. Our 5 man premade is complete junk. The other team's premade has 3 healers, a reaver using plaguebring, and a dom. Our teams premade has 3 sins a cab and a bad warden. Still not balanced. Still not fun.
    Last edited by Whatisausername; 07-17-2015 at 04:15 PM.

  9. #69
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    Just joined into ANOTHER losing warfront. That's probably the 5th one in the past 2 hours. At no point today have I joined into a winning one, so don't give me that BS reply.
    Last edited by Whatisausername; 07-17-2015 at 04:17 PM.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecru View Post
    i think you misunderstood what's actually being discussed in this thread. the argument being made was that an individual cannot actually carry a warfront without half decent teammates because rift simply doesn't allow it... [/url].
    But that IS what I'm talking about. The reason an individual can't carry a warfront without decent m8's is because an individual doesn't contribute enough to do so without the rest of the team carrying that individual the vast majority of the way.

    The good individual is the straw that breaks the camel's back, not the entire weight. Not even the majority of it.

    ...which, it should work that way. so that all by itself isn't a problem or a cause for argument.

    most individuals just aren't that valuable, even with the distortion of gear.
    Last edited by Mintyman; 07-17-2015 at 04:28 PM.

  11. #71
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Please show any game matched team PvP game that has someone with a 95% win rate, I'll show you an exploiter.
    just in case anyone was wondering... my win rate is 50%.
    please remember that the next time you're thinking of starting a new "Fix Kronos" thread. ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    just in case anyone was wondering... my win rate is 50%.
    please remember that the next time you're thinking of starting a new "Fix Kronos" thread. ;)
    well of course, ELO is not a sign of how good you are. How is this not common sense by now?

    this isn't Chess.

    this isn't 1 vs 1
    Last edited by Mintyman; 07-17-2015 at 05:24 PM.

  13. #73
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    Probably all i really would like adjusted from elo is that k value (rate of change). Since elo has been visible I'm 1100ish wfs played with apparently a "good" WL ratio of 54%. Elo change. ..168 i think atm?

    I don't mind starting at basically zero so long as it actually has the ability to go up.
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xentex View Post
    What I said earlier is that PvP in Rift is a non-profit generating thing that they keep around to provide a periodically entertaining distraction for people that are primarily in the game for, and pay for, something else. Crafting and Minions are examples of that something else. Wardrobes and dimensions are something else. Raiding is something else.
    Minions and crafting are the distractions. I don't see how anyone can make Minions anything more than a part-time activity. I maxed out on Minion adventure slots so that I could stay in the warfronts and have the minions do any mat gathering I would need.

    This is not to say that people don't do some of all of that. But in my opinion PvP gets relatively little developer attention for a reason.
    Myopic leadership?

    PvP content has the advantage of being the most replayable of all content possible. With different teams from match to match, a variety of strategies, and a complex mish-mash of souls and roles creating a different environment for each encounter, Rift's PvP has a great deal of potential that is being neglected.

    The fact that Trion has dropped the ball on PvP at the launch of 3.3 is unfortunate, but their actions since has demonstrated that they have at least acknowledged to themselves that mistakes were made.

    If you came into a thread about a completely dead topic looking for adult discussion it raises the question of whether you'd be capable of meaningfully participating in such a discussion.
    More condescending tripe. Do try to limit that.

    How many times do the devs have to say "No, we're not doing a reset."

    And I happen to agree with them.
    And I am undecided either way. Hence my participation in this discussion.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    The goal of the matchmaker is to make as balanced matches as possible, so it's not just only blowouts.
    This is a goal I support.

    The best matches are those that I can reflect upon and identify the decisions I made that led to a narrow victory, or just barely doomed us to defeat. Likewise, I enjoy the matches where we are making a heroic comeback, but just barely fail; or where we drop the ball at the end and just barely squeak in a victory at timer or when we max out points.

    Adrenaline rushes. I love them.

    However, there are still issues that could probably be addressed to improve the experience of all within the warfronts.

    Quote Originally Posted by SprawlnBrawl View Post
    Have you considered a timed queue that groups people of equal elo and expands out over time versus just taking people with very high and very low on same team? I think competent pvpers just want more matches with better players on both teams. Even if matches don't full up I'd rather have this
    I've made this suggestion before, and I have seen other do the same.

    Grab the entire pool of players queued for warfronts and split them in half based on ELO: the half with the higher ELO's gets split into teams and thrown into one match; the half with the lower ELO gets split ionto teams and thrown into a second match. Anyone queueing up after these matches starts would be assigned to the appropriate match based on ELO.

    The lesser low-ELO group would benefit greatly by not getting massacred by better geared/skilled/experienced/coordinated opponents roflstomping them. The high-ELO group would benefit from more interesting and competitive gameplay.

    The queue time would increase as a result, but it would likely be worth it if it indeed improves the quality of matches (and I very much think it will).

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