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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: ELO, and other PvP MMOs

  1. #16
    Prophet of Telara
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    Ocho is a new dev. He wasn't around when ELO was breaking the game back in SL. It is hard to debate when the player has about 3 years experience over the dev. Elo doesn't work because the game was virtually rollercoaster balancing. We had for instance specs like tempara or 2 shot pyros and crazy specs going all the way back to 4 + months of double dipping healing from defiler, chloro and bard/tact producing millions upon millions of HPS. The game changes and not same so how is Elo factoring for this? You can be great one month and terrible the next because of simple class changes.

    The biggest problem is like others have said Elo should decay over time. Its been brought up. Your system matches people in blues and greens vs. premades and groups. You may say I am full of it but it is very easy when you get in match with 3000+ ELo fresh 65 and the other side have 5 man premade. You simply can hover over every ones HP and can see 60-70K carries, some 70-75k carries , one or two healers and the premade healers have nearly 100K chloros, 85K+ HP dps and invincible bunny hopping liberators and physicians or burst specs that assist train wreck the badly geared players one by one.

    Why not display average ELO for each side at the bottom along with the imbalanced team sizes that happen about 50% of the time when match starts? If you have so much faith in system then this should be publicly displayed. Pre NT Daglar even mentioned he would put a way for each side to see each other group queue ins. What happened to that?
    Last edited by Planetx; 07-01-2015 at 03:04 PM.

  2. #17
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    not completly happy with rift elo but fair play to you ocho joining us in forums and replying.


  3. #18
    Shield of Telara Necalli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Planetx View Post
    Ocho is a new dev. He wasn't around when ELO was breaking the game back in SL. It is hard to debate when the player has about 3 years experience over the dev. Elo doesn't work because the game was virtually rollercoaster balancing. We had for instance specs like tempara or 2 shot pyros and crazy specs going all the way back to 4 + months of double dipping healing from defiler, chloro and bard/tact producing millions upon millions of HPS. The game changes and not same so how is Elo factoring for this? You can be great one month and terrible the next because of simple class changes.

    The biggest problem is like others have said Elo should decay over time. Its been brought up. Your system matches people in blues and greens vs. premades and groups. You may say I am full of it but it is very easy when you get in match with 3000+ ELo fresh 65 and the other side have 5 man premade. You simply can hover over every ones HP and can see 60-70K carries, some 70-75k carries , one or two healers and the premade healers have nearly 100K chloros, 85K+ HP dps and invincible bunny hopping liberators and physicians or burst specs that assist train wreck the badly geared players one by one.

    Why not display average ELO for each side at the bottom along with the imbalanced team sizes that happen about 50% of the time when match starts? If you have so much faith in system then this should be publicly displayed. Pre NT Daglar even mentioned he would put a way for each side to see each other group queue ins. What happened to that?
    Ocho is part of the community team, I don't believe he is a dev. He just merely has access to the dev team.

  4. #19
    Plane Touched detpack's Avatar
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    It's still awesome to hear from someone with a purple name tag now and then.

  5. #20
    Plane Touched zasen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post



    Everyone we've looked at has been accurate.


    that is absolute bs or you havent looked at ezuan, there is no way in hell his elo should in the 150+ range.

  6.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #21
    Rift Team Ocho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Planetx View Post
    Pre NT Daglar even mentioned he would put a way for each side to see each other group queue ins. What happened to that?
    Still something we'd like to do one day.

  7. #22
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    ELO would work if this game had more players. You wouldn't have situations where you have one high elo player being balanced out by a dozen scrub carries. The game would be able to field multiple good players for each team.

    Similarly, premades would also not be a "problem" if there were more PVPers. When they first made the decision to stop trying to queue 5s versus only other 5s, there were tons of decent groups that began to queue and so if you had a PM on the other team, you'd probably have one on your own too.

    The ELO system was designed for a game that doesn't exist anymore, one that had a small but dedicated base of PVP players that have now left the game, but Trion doesn't see the reality on the ground.



    Quote Originally Posted by SprawlnBrawl View Post
    It was in the early days and there were more lopsided matches
    Not quite true. Once upon a time, before elo, the game actually grouped together guardians and defiants by faction, and the guardians curbstomped nearly every game. It was so lopsided it wasn't even fun. When they decided to randomize WFs, which was still before elo, things got a lot more even and less ridiculous. It isn't correct to say that things were "more lopsided" without taking into consideration that elo was not the ONLY change to matchmaking.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    What would be the advantage of wiping the slate clean? It produces less accurate results at what benefit?
    What's accurate?

    I haven't done a WF on my mage since april 2014, and it has 3900 ELO. It has 800 hit and is wearing gear scrounged up from NT chronicles. I don't know what specs mages play nowadays and I don't remember what little I once knew about the old mage specs either. So how is that elo accurate or fair?
    Last edited by Stirby; 07-01-2015 at 03:46 PM.
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  8.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #23
    Rift Team Ocho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stirby View Post
    What's accurate?

    I haven't done a WF on my mage since april 2014, and it has 3900 ELO. It has 800 hit and is wearing gear scrounged up from NT chronicles. I don't know what specs mages play nowadays and I don't remember what little I once knew about the old mage specs either. So how is that elo accurate or fair?
    It will adjust appropriately fairly quickly.

  9.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Planetx View Post
    Pre NT Daglar even mentioned he would put a way for each side to see each other group queue ins. What happened to that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Still something we'd like to do one day.
    Assuming displaying premades is what's being talked about and not ELO in this case (correct me if I'm wrong), I believe that it should be going live with 3.3 (insert barring nothing asploding or going horribly wrong here) :-).

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    What would be the advantage of wiping the slate clean? It produces less accurate results at what benefit?
    Everyone we've looked at has been accurate.
    Nope, it's just speculation. No basis in truth.
    I'm up to 260 elo over 800+ matches, around 54% win + or - 1 depending on the day. It took 800 matches at a good win percent to go up 140 points. ..and end at worse than the bad potatoes.

    The "wipe the slate" is also only worse in the short term. If the system works, it would shortly get back to what it currently is. ..Assuming that it's not bugged out in the first place.

    Probably what you have, is total wfs lifetime messing with elo's rate of change. Which would help to explain why many of the long term players have the same issue i do.

    I don't even care about starting elo at 121, it's elo not changing at more than a point or 2 a game that is the issue.

    More than likely if you kept wf "history" topped out at over the last 500 games it would fix things. I know that i am an outlier on the high side for total wfs played.

    Fernand came back by the way, his elo started out about the same as mine. 136 i think?
    Ezuen@Faeblight<Godlike Awesomeness> lvl 65 p100 warrior
    aka "The Healing Warrior" (before it was cool)

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    It will adjust appropriately fairly quickly.
    not if wins and losses are only +/- one point..
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  12. #27
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    That was kind of my whole point. And one possible cause. You have the same issue but stuck at the high side right?
    Ezuen@Faeblight<Godlike Awesomeness> lvl 65 p100 warrior
    aka "The Healing Warrior" (before it was cool)

  13. #28
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    For me, all I want is a good fight. Yes, I do conquests and PvP for the weeklies too, however I do get a thrill out of a challenging match. The ELO seems to throw you into a losing battle when you win enough in a row. If I'm being rated based on win percentage later on, this would bother me if the aforementioned continues. PMs need their own separate matches too if these ratings are going to show later.

    I appreciate your time, Ocho, for addressing this. I know PvP isn't a top priority, but every little bit can go a long ways sometimes. Thanks again
    Niriena, Kearlet, Smilely, Rium

  14. #29
    Plane Touched detpack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecru View Post
    not if wins and losses are only +/- one point..
    That's where some thinking is probably wrong. ELO (that I'm familiar with) goes up more significantly when you beat much better players (average) and down more significantly when loosing to much worse players (average).

  15. #30
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    As a high elo player this makes sense for some of us. Average or above average teams not dropping high elo players losses by much. But in my case I've got 270 elo as of right now. .. but personal elo isn't taken into account, only team differential AFAIK. Having a low elo means the chances of playing an even elo team are better, as i am easier to fit in and keep elo even than most players of real elo. Could be part of why my elo changes so slowly. Assuming highest elo is picked first for wfs.
    Ezuen@Faeblight<Godlike Awesomeness> lvl 65 p100 warrior
    aka "The Healing Warrior" (before it was cool)

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