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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Conquest and Premade Group Testing

  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shanoah View Post
    You have some valid points in there about postmade pm's, however I completely disagree with you about 5 man premade limits making conquest any more balanced or enjoyable. I think there are a variety of other suggestions which should be considered, as opposed to making the only large scale pvp venue essentially the same as a warfront by restricting it to small groups.
    You are pretty much in denial Shanoah.

    How about we make it a 30 man PM, will it get better? How about a 40 man PM. Lets go in your direction.

    Obviously it gets even more horrendously unbalanced, unfair, and out of whack, the further you add more players in a PM with the current participation level.

    While many people have added great ideas to get participation levels up, you are resource denied as a Dev team and good luck with that. Getting on the reality bandwagon Steppes is a near copy/paste of the original with Whitefall mechanics. That's how much resource effort was put into the whole 2nd CQ. I'd expect to get struck by lightning before anyones revamp of CQ gets a serious look at. If I don't respond anymore....call 911 I'm convulsing on the floor in shock. If I do, however....
    Last edited by Wrastion; 07-09-2015 at 11:52 AM.

  2. #362
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    Still here...you can put down the phone.


    Asking for a timer is probably the extent of the pushing the resources to their limit that I think everyone should be aiming for.
    Last edited by Wrastion; 07-09-2015 at 11:54 AM.

  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by SprawlnBrawl View Post
    nothing can "fix" CQ just make it better for those who dont want to be there to begin with (everyone except 1 guild). In the example given there were 3 equal teams skirmishing around, you join with your premade and people on the other 2 factions leave all together. Would you rather trion just lock you out of CQ until the other 2 factions reach 40 people, which would never happen outside of prime time? I don't see how you dont understand how going from 20v20v20 to 40v20v20 causes problems.
    I'm also not sure what he wanted the other team to do. Stay at a huge disadvantage and get farmed? So if they were going from extractor to extractor they should have continued to do so and allowed the PM to pinpoint them, farming them so they can't even get kills from extractors. Sounds solid.

    While I agree a lot with Hailofglory for wanting CQ changes and for Devs to look at things for fairness, placing things back at 20 man PM's currently (as is shown even now) ruins the CQ for everyone else.

    There werent 20 pugs suddenly going to join to offset the huge unfair advantage. Even if 20 did join, they would be split 10 and 10 on the other teams, still giving one team a 10 man unfair advantage. That's if people also didn't leave.

    20 pugs weren't going to join suddenly anyways.

    Like Sprawl said-the only solution you then should be giving, if you want to go that route, is to lock everyone out until teams are even.


    Why not go for a compromise of ten man teams? I do believe 20 to 5 was extreme. I'd shoot for ten man teams and I'd think that would be a good balancing act. Also, add a timer.

  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrastion View Post
    The PUGS do this for a very simplistic reason. They are getting farmed, and not getting anywhere with weekly kill count due to this, and most are probably hoping to get a single win in vs the PMds thst have several already under their belt. The only way being if they can sneak in a win.
    what you say might be true, except that its not.
    when the two premade factions go straight for each other and the third pug faction isn't touched at all, the pugs push timer. no getting farmed.. the only reason they aren't advancing their weekly kill quest is because they have no intention of advancing it. they are avoiding combat when they could very easily join the fight and sandwich a premade in doing so.

    pushing the timer through extractors is counter productive to winning, so they don't even have that excuse.
    the team with the most extractors at the start of timer has the most to lose, and tends to get hit hard by both other factions. unless you have a very good lead and a very strong team able to split and block at least one enemy faction, it is a losing position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  5. #365
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    I believe continuing a debate as to whether CQ groups should be 5 men or 20 men is pointless at this stage. Trion has gone through the process of testing it on PTS server, viewing forum posts and changing the codes. Though I would still have preferred a 20-men or even 10-men PMCQ, I do believe it is a done deal and the clock cannot be turned back. The only way I envisage Trion reverting CQ back to 20-men PMCQs is if EVERYONE complains about the new 5-men, and that is simply not going to happen as there are supporters on either camp.

    So, let's be realistic...

    What we should instead focus on is how to attract more participants into CQ. There are various ways to do this:

    - Dealing with AFKers - Trion dislike AFKers in group activities, as seen in WFs and IAs. There need to be a similar mechanic to CQs. Ideas include putting a debuff on people who get kicked from CQs to prevent them from rejoining.

    - Dealing with Freeriders - The ability to join at timer to freeride on a winning team reduces the need to actively participate in CQs prior to timer. The easy fix is to disallow people from joining CQ after timer hits.

    - Effort vs reward - Aside from the CQ weekly win quest, the reward for winning a CQ is pretty useless to most participants. Assuming the above 2 changes are implemented, and people need to put in an effort to actually participate in CQ, such participation should give a chance (I say a chance coz you do have to be on the winning team at the end) of getting better rewards. An easy fix is to update the chest loot to take into account the new tier.

    - Dailies - By dailies, I do not mean dailies which give something silly like 100 VS. The daily could involve taking down a certain number of extractors or dealing a certain small number of players. Perhaps a daily which gives a CQ gear chest (same as WF chest, NOT the chest we get if we win CQ) which gives a chance of dropping pvp gear and pvp artifacts and some plat.

    I enjoy CQs and hope that more would participate. I hope Trion can take the above suggestions into account to attract more CQers. Also, I hope other players can focus on how to improve CQs without going back to the 5-men or 20-men debate. Trion has made a decision on that and we need to focus on improvements within the 5-men framework.

  6. #366
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    CQ is going fine right now when there are premades on each team.

    Issue is getting enough to form.
    Everything after Storm Legion was a mistake. ()

  7. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chetar View Post
    What we should instead focus on is how to attract more participants into CQ.
    A basic look into what made CQ originally a popular activity will help.

    When it was new & fresh, it gained a lot of attention. It progressed into the "premade campaigns" era, and then devolved into its current state.

    What happened?

    *First, you need to subtract the players that have lag/latency issues in Conquest- of which there seem to be many.

    *Then, the massive "pvp'er exodus of late 2014" had a considerable effect, as many CQ supporters and competitive-minded players went elsewhere.

    *Now consider the remaining pvp enthusiasts that prefer a more engaging environment- for even as a member of a premade, each individual is only contributing 5% to the success of their group- or less, considering the additional numbers amongst the rest of your current faction.

    Now to replace these numbers, Trion has created the scenario that raid currencies be awarded to "incentivize" participation.


    So the CQ and pvp culture of the game has changed significantly. Its highly unlikely that ANY significant "improvement" will increase actual participation overnight, simply due to the current established culture of the game.

    I'm not suggesting that "CQ sucks" or any notion similar to that- I've spent many hours in conquest having fun in the past few years- but the existing game demographic just doesn't provide hordes of motivated participants.

    The whole "player and gear unification" concept Trion has initiated with 3.0 has its merits- but Conquest is an example of a game aspect that catered to the previous playerbase as opposed to the current one.

  8. #368
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    Default do we get to know even more to your plans?

    The test was carried out only 4 days and was interrupted 5 days ago, with the announcement that there over again what comes.

  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    what you say might be true, except that its not.
    when the two premade factions go straight for each other and the third pug faction isn't touched at all, the pugs push timer. no getting farmed.. the only reason they aren't advancing their weekly kill quest is because they have no intention of advancing it. they are avoiding combat when they could very easily join the fight and sandwich a premade in doing so.

    pushing the timer through extractors is counter productive to winning, so they don't even have that excuse.
    the team with the most extractors at the start of timer has the most to lose, and tends to get hit hard by both other factions. unless you have a very good lead and a very strong team able to split and block at least one enemy faction, it is a losing position.
    Just going to say I am right, and your statement is kind of ridiculous. You just gave PUGS the organized expectations and tactics of a PM. They aren't, period.

    While I understand what they "could" do, again, you are assuming (probably because you are a PM player in CQ all the time) that "this is all PUGS need to do".

    Kind of like the corporate employee who doesn't have a clue what its like at the regular store level and so makes assumptions based on their reality, not on the actual reality of things as is.

    PUGS ARE disorganized. Even if half of them said, "Hey lets sandwhich the two fighting PM';s" thats only half of them, and still not enough to do damage. And so, PUGS simply push timer constantly because they lose all fights and think they can win the overall CQ via extractors. If you can't win fights, and cant win the game, why even be there?

    This is also why PM's basic 101 is allow PUGS to get to 55% then farm, repeat and farm. Please don't act like this wasn't going on for the longest time. Heck if it wasn't for this tactic by PM"s most PUGS wouldnt be tricked into trying to push timer thinking they have a hope of doing so. They'd simply quit CQ (Oh look that was happening), resulting in a low playerbase. And so advancing the kill quest, to most PUGS, is via extractor killing whilst thinking they might win as they are strung along for the benefit of the PM whose just farming them. Also, if PM's didn't win 99% of the time, PUGS wouldnt push so hard for that one...single....win...they need in a whole week. Yes, its a situation I've been in constantly myself. If you don't join the PM, you lose almost assuredly, resulting in never winning a single CQ. It's kind of ridiculous. Here we have PM players QQ QQ I can't farm CQ and get 20 wins in whilst the vast majority of players (PUGS) can't even win once. Why do you guys think there is such opposition to the twenty man, despite all the suggestions made to "improve" the 20 man content. You've alienating the vast majority of players into not even joining CQ.

    Also, primarily the only time a PUG actually wins a CQ is due to actually having two PM"s who get caught up fighting one another (or burned by one another purposefully just to prevent a win). Normally a PUG is just farmed and also loses after being strung along if their is one dominate PM. That is NORMAL for CQ, it is not an exception. What a horrible system with 20 mans for PUGS. No wonder its so unpopular and Trion had to do something due to a large scale fight having a large scale exodus of players.

    Edit: For the brief time they changed it to 5 man teams I got my CQ weekly win in the first and second day (for the two toons I currently play). Never got the win in that easy before, and I felt like my personal effort contributed to the team vs. joining a zerg match. This is not biased dribble but the truth.
    Last edited by Wrastion; 07-14-2015 at 11:26 AM.

  10. #370
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrastion View Post
    Just going to say I am right, and your statement is kind of ridiculous. You just gave PUGS the organized expectations and tactics of a PM. They aren't, period.
    there is zero tactics or organisation needed to follow the breadcrumb trail of extractors, which is all that is required of them to push timer when two opposing PM led factions are busy with each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrastion View Post
    While I understand what they "could" do, again, you are assuming (probably because you are a PM player in CQ all the time) that "this is all PUGS need to do".
    I don't always play CQ with a PM. I pug a lot too. in fact during vanilla and SL I led pure pug factions, sometimes against PMs. I still pug into CQs and see exactly how they herp the derp.
    the instinctive pug play style is well suited to pushing timer, particularly as there is always a handful of pug players not following calls and off farming there own extractors in obscure corners of the map.

    when there is no other teams also taking extractors - such as you see when two opposing PMs are engaged with each other - the pugs will eventually push timer as a default action, rather than seeking out and engaging in pvp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  11. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    there is zero tactics or organisation needed to follow the breadcrumb trail of extractors, which is all that is required of them to push timer when two opposing PM led factions are busy with each other.



    I don't always play CQ with a PM. I pug a lot too. in fact during vanilla and SL I led pure pug factions, sometimes against PMs. I still pug into CQs and see exactly how they herp the derp.
    the instinctive pug play style is well suited to pushing timer, particularly as there is always a handful of pug players not following calls and off farming there own extractors in obscure corners of the map.

    when there is no other teams also taking extractors - such as you see when two opposing PMs are engaged with each other - the pugs will eventually push timer as a default action, rather than seeking out and engaging in pvp.
    You really didnt address the vast majority of my points.

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