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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Conquest and Premade Group Testing

  1. #151
    Rift Chaser Xentex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McChaffe View Post
    Trion pls. Rewards for participation!
    If you reward people for anything other than winning then the objective simply shifts to doing that other thing. If it's kills, then people will ignore the actual objectives and focus on kills. If it's merely being present then they'll just ride around in circles.

    In the world of games there are "reward/progression" types and "just for the fun of it" types. F2P games will overwhelmingly fall in the "reward/progression" category because that's the only way to make money (which is required to keep the game alive). A "reward/progression" game attracts people that focus on rewards and progression.

    Put another way, people who want a game where people focus on playing rather advancing then narrow your focus to pay2play games.

  2. #152
    Rift Master Grrrrl's Avatar
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    Change the weekly win to :
    -participate in a match where timer is triggered kill count (not%)
    -win a conquest match
    Grl / Grrrl / Grrrrl / Grrrrrl @Deepwood <Hello Kitty> Grrrrl / Grl @Zaviel and probably more...

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  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    you realise that that is pretty much how pve raiding works, don't you?
    the full pve raid of elitist players clears all the content and gets all the nicest loots/currencies, with the smaller groups/pugs clear less or lesser content and don't get as nice a reward.

    your argument against the idea applies just as readily to how pve works now, as to what I suggested.
    This would be quite relevant to me if I had ever stepped foot in a raid.

    Regardless, raids and Conquest are quite different beasts, just as NTEs and Warfronts are completely different beasts. Different rule sets and reward systems should exist for them.

    Now you and I will likely agree that the current reward system for PvP needs a fair bit of work. Personally, I'd rather not force people into large-scale organized groups just to PvP. One of the things I enjoy the most about PvP is that is can be done with very little prep-time and scheduling commitments.

    If Trion were able to competitively balance PMs and pugs among the three factions in Conquest, then I would be a strident defender of the large Conquest PM. I've participated in far too many lopsided PM-dominated wastes-of-time CQs for me to believe that to be the case.

    I do have to wonder why so many experienced PvPers are so opposed to the 5-man limit. Five good players can wreak serious damage if played properly. You want good PvP? Go camp a factions spawn and kill them one by one until they finally build enough critical mass to overwhelm you. Or follow a zerg and hit those finishing the cap when the majority of the players have moved on to the next extractor. Or bait a zerg and lure the more aggressive ones into an ambush hiding just out of line of sight.

    If you are determined to engage in the zerg warfare that has become the norm, then by all means form a post-made with the other 5-man PMs that have landed on your team.


    also, if you want to talk about heavily penalising players...
    what do you think this test is to the premaders, if not a penalty so heavy as to be a death sentence, execution set for Wednesday's hotfix.
    Given that these PMs have been actively wrecking CQ for all but the busiest time of the day, I have very little sympathy. You guys had the opportunity to make for some good PvP by making multiple smaller PMs to guarantee some PvP. Instead you have been stacking the full 20 for the easy win and have driven the solo player away.

    This change is likely to ensure more PvP in Conquest, assuming PvPers actually seek PvP. Whether you are part of that PvP is entirely up to you.

    Edit: Anyone looking for a Chloro healer (ST healing) for spawn-camping, give me a tell or mail at Nefelia@deepwood.

  4. #154
    Champion of Telara McChaffe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xentex View Post
    If you reward people for anything other than winning then the objective simply shifts to doing that other thing. If it's kills, then people will ignore the actual objectives and focus on kills. If it's merely being present then they'll just ride around in circles.

    In the world of games there are "reward/progression" types and "just for the fun of it" types. F2P games will overwhelmingly fall in the "reward/progression" category because that's the only way to make money (which is required to keep the game alive). A "reward/progression" game attracts people that focus on rewards and progression.

    Put another way, people who want a game where people focus on playing rather advancing then narrow your focus to pay2play games.
    And CQ lacks both good rewards and progression. It also lacks daily incentive to do the content. In my post on page 5, I clearly stated that CQ lacks both a diversity in objectives and just rewards. I then suggested the removal of the weeklies and replacing them with dailies to increase the total payout for participating and to add in a reason to que up regularly. Having multiple dailies would significantly boost the replayability of CQ by giving players different objectives to focus on each game.

    Adding dailies is also a step towards how PvP progression should be done. PvP progression should have a constant steady payout, not a once a week sum. Thus PvPers would have to put more playtime in to maximize the their total income. With the current weeklies, after a majority of players finish them, CQ becomes empty because there is little reason to enter since rewards in the chest aren't worth the time. This makes it next to impossible for other players to complete the weeklies.

    With the suggestions I had on page 5 of this thread, the win and kills would become a daily occurrence rather than a weekly one and be far more reasonable to complete. I also suggested 3 other dailies which would help break zerging, prompting smaller skrinishes in the large scale conflict of CQ.

    The ideas I suggested don't provide as large a payout as raiding, but it would be a signifigant boost and a step in the right direction to making PvP progression viable.
    Everything after Storm Legion was a mistake. ()

  5. #155
    Plane Walker Shanoah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SupermanSocks View Post
    I'm not looking at the code right now to see the exact way it should function, but I believe that it depends on the way you try to form the 20 man.

    If my memory is correct, currently if you join it will place you in a group with other players and you have to leave to create a new group. If you join as a group, then it will put new players into that group (which is the functionality that I changed for next week). So if your concern is that you are unable to fill a raid with the 20 people you want due to the system automatically placing others in the group you joined with, the behavior of it should be changed for next week to no longer do so.
    My specific concern is that when we joined into cq, we set the group to "private" and random people kept popping in to the group who were not invited.

  6. #156
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    So now that it's changed... Here's what I'm noticing... 3 hours later.....

    The same pugs drop after one fight when they lose the fight.

    The same people encourage the faction to push timer.

    The same players as before go off and solo an extractor and then complain that they died at said extractor.

    Except now CQ takes 3+ hours, there's no penalty for leaving early or joining late. The drops when compared to anything else of playing for 3 hours are paltry, save for perhaps a failed progression raid.

    I don't jump in on pve raids, because I don't enjoy them. I'm not suggesting a 20 main raid be limited to you and 4 friends and 15 pugs that don't/won't/can't follow directions.

    Please give serious consideration to returning the 20 main group to CQ. Players actually enjoyed playing with other people that worked with one another. If not then please give serious consideration to limiting all raids to 5 man including PvE raids so that "everyone" can experience end game raiding as well as CQ and all the other aspects of the game that you want to engage us in.

  7. #157
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    What the vocal minority failed to realize before the change is now they have LESS of a chance to get their win. With 5 man premades the win is really RNG, but now it takes 2-3 hours for one to be finished. So with less chances of pugging in and getting a win it will hurt the vocal minority.

    I have a feeling on Tuesday night we will see a lot of whining posts and comments in game about not being able to get their CQ weeklies done because of this change.
    #endthedoublestandards

  8. #158
    Prophet of Telara Zaber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hailolyergory View Post
    What the vocal minority failed to realize before the change is now they have LESS of a chance to get their win. With 5 man premades the win is really RNG, but now it takes 2-3 hours for one to be finished. So with less chances of pugging in and getting a win it will hurt the vocal minority.

    I have a feeling on Tuesday night we will see a lot of whining posts and comments in game about not being able to get their CQ weeklies done because of this change.
    Thats how I been winning my games befor the change, RNG chance.

  9. #159
    Champion of Telara McChaffe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hailolyergory View Post
    I have a feeling on Tuesday night we will see a lot of whining posts and comments in game about not being able to get their CQ weeklies done because of this change.
    Because a large majority of players would have either finished their weeklies thanks to good leads or that a large number of players still deem them to be far to time consuming to complete. The amount of time it can take to get the kill weekly done as a pug is horrendous.

    These three hours matches wouldn't be a major problem is people actually had things they could get done during them. But all form of rewards are either tied towards winning CQ, which can be done by joining timer and not participating or getting kills. The latter of which is extremely hard to do when your team quits after the first wipe.

    CQ needs dailies to provide a form of reward that doesn't involve getting kills or winning, but involves helping your team by doing objectives. I'd gladly pug into CQs to get dailies done when I don't want to lead.

    Placing most of the rewards on winning rather that participation is hurting CQ. There should be rewards for participating+the extra bonus of winning and looting the chest.
    Last edited by McChaffe; 07-02-2015 at 12:01 PM.
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  10. #160
    Rift Master Jaguarundi's Avatar
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    I love the new changes. It was nice to go into conquest and actually have all sides have a chance. It lasted longer but it was far more fun to play.

    I have won a few and lost a few, but I stayed for all of them as I never felt like we did not have a chance.

  11. #161
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nefelia View Post
    This would be quite relevant to me if I had ever stepped foot in a raid.

    Regardless, raids and Conquest are quite different beasts, just as NTEs and Warfronts are completely different beasts. Different rule sets and reward systems should exist for them.

    Now you and I will likely agree that the current reward system for PvP needs a fair bit of work. Personally, I'd rather not force people into large-scale organized groups just to PvP. One of the things I enjoy the most about PvP is that is can be done with very little prep-time and scheduling commitments.

    If Trion were able to competitively balance PMs and pugs among the three factions in Conquest, then I would be a strident defender of the large Conquest PM. I've participated in far too many lopsided PM-dominated wastes-of-time CQs for me to believe that to be the case.

    I do have to wonder why so many experienced PvPers are so opposed to the 5-man limit. Five good players can wreak serious damage if played properly. You want good PvP? Go camp a factions spawn and kill them one by one until they finally build enough critical mass to overwhelm you. Or follow a zerg and hit those finishing the cap when the majority of the players have moved on to the next extractor. Or bait a zerg and lure the more aggressive ones into an ambush hiding just out of line of sight.

    If you are determined to engage in the zerg warfare that has become the norm, then by all means form a post-made with the other 5-man PMs that have landed on your team.




    Given that these PMs have been actively wrecking CQ for all but the busiest time of the day, I have very little sympathy. You guys had the opportunity to make for some good PvP by making multiple smaller PMs to guarantee some PvP. Instead you have been stacking the full 20 for the easy win and have driven the solo player away.

    This change is likely to ensure more PvP in Conquest, assuming PvPers actually seek PvP. Whether you are part of that PvP is entirely up to you.

    Edit: Anyone looking for a Chloro healer (ST healing) for spawn-camping, give me a tell or mail at Nefelia@deepwood.
    you have completely and utterly failed to understand or accept that CQ is 100% entirely intended to be large scale zerg on zerg pvp. that grouping players into raids, and for multiple raids working together, is the expected mode of CQ.

    if you want small scale pvp, there is warfronts. you don't need to take up a raid slot in CQ to have that kind of pvp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  12. #162
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    After playing a few rounds with the new 5man limits I honestly cannot see how this is an improvement in any way shape or form with the exception of stopping quick caps. And there are more viable ways to stop quickcaps without making the match insufferable.

  13. #163
    Soulwalker hayBREEE's Avatar
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    Default My two cents

    One of my favorite things about CQ was getting in there with a group of 5+ friends/guildies and chatting together whether we actually follow the objectives or not. Now that ability is gone, so has the fun of it. I don't want people to miss out but it's already happening.
    I'm not one for complaining about how long it takes, but I can see how some people short of time would be. If you are going to put the game out as a casual friendly type of game then make it so for the casuals. 3/4 hr CQs with a 2k kill requirement for somebody in the Oceanic region makes it a painful grind.

    So what about fixing the other issues at hand instead of limiting the ability to queue with multiple people? It seems there are some recurrent themes with CQ overall.

    1: Stacked CQPM's. It's been a known issue for a while. Pugs hate it because they get steamrolled. PM's hate it because there's not competition.
    2: Timer pushing by PMs. Why not increase the percentage required to push the timer or make it so it can't be done for say half the amount of time that you have to wait for CQ in the first place?
    3: A new CQ or a revitalization of current ones. Bring something new into it. The same old CQ maps have almost reached a point of stagnation.
    4: A change in weekly CQ kill requirements. 2k is just too much, even if you get into a CQPM regularly. Even worse when you're in the Oceanic region and there are no CQPM's or you're just extractor farming for the most part of your prime time.

    In any case, there are a number of other suggestions for the fix. The CQPM being limited to 5 mans was a bad quickfix imo.
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  14. #164
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    I'll start off by saying that I love the idea of CQ and its intended purpose of open world, large scale PVP battles. With the following proposed changes I believe 20 member premades can still be accommodated. I also believe that we the players should have the right to be able to play with our friends in a larger raid.

    1) Recently the main complaint players seem to have with 20 man Premades is their capability to readily split cap all extractors at the beginning of the match- forcing timer within 5 minutes simply because there's nothing to kill. My solution to this is to only allow the 65% timer to trigger when all teams have equal strength in numbers.

    This could potentially mean at low server populations that timer could never be pushed - but this is completely solved by point 2 below.

    2) Implement a static timer on any and all CQ maps of 1 hour. This has been proposed many times before, and is self explanatory but I wish to add an extra voice for this feature. Four or Five hours of any activity is just not fun, and this really needs to be looked at/implemented even if no other changes to CQ are made.

    3) Prevent premades from being stacked by implementing the following logic:

    If a 15-20 man raid joins one faction then only 5 man premades or smaller may join that same faction (once a premade 15 members or larger joins that faction becomes flagged).

    4) Replace the weekly "Win one match of conquest" with 2 Daily quests that players have a choice of (they may only choose one). Obviously the net amount of marks/reward would be the same as what the weekly bestows. This would incentivize involvement in combat situations and would leave afk'ers bereft of benefit.

    a) Heal x amount in a Conquest to friendly ascended.
    b) Deal x amount of damage in Conquest to enemy ascended.

    5) Incentivize the actual act of participating in CQ itself by awarding Marauder caches throughout the match. This at least rewards players regardless of whether they "win" or not for the time invested. The amount of Marauder caches any one player can acquire during a match can be capped (let's say 3, if the maximum time of a match is one hour) and should be tied to amount of kills; I think ~300 kills should be a good starting point. Perhaps give players a small chance to earn Abyssal Crusader or raid marks.

    Points 1, and 3 should give pugs a better fighting chance. Point 2 is designed to make CQ a reasonable activity without being painful. Points 4 and 5 are meant to foster an atmosphere of participation in glorious combat.

    Looking forward to a response.

  15. #165
    Prophet of Telara Dee Dee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    you have completely and utterly failed to understand or accept that CQ is 100% entirely intended to be large scale zerg on zerg pvp. that grouping players into raids, and for multiple raids working together, is the expected mode of CQ.

    if you want small scale pvp, there is warfronts. you don't need to take up a raid slot in CQ to have that kind of pvp.
    Raiding guilds do not have conquest on their calendar, and never had. Raids: 2, 3, 4, 5 or 8 nights per week, farm farm, farm, or progress, progress, progress.
    If they do the weekly they are on their own, if one or more guildie joins along: there is your epic battle.

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