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Thread: off global cooldown 30m debilitates and stuns

  1. #46
    Champion CDagger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrastion View Post
    Not disagreeing. But, what would have to happen is melee souls would have to be reevaluated. Shaman would for sure since it can almost 4 global people currently. Even Ecru's setup (I believe) from experiencing it firsthand is two dots (from range) that are very nice into the pretty much 50% of your life global when he reaches you. I know my inq had to cleanse them as I kited him in a couple wfs. He dipped into warden for drowning deluge. At any rate I can only imagine if shaman had two break frees for example at the current way they are. NB already has a 2nd break free and with gear destroys people in no time. Paragon also destroys currently. Now imagine these guys with low break frees, and a healer. LOL.

    What I'm saying is what people are missing is that the souls are already over the top in damage-they just have no way of engaging easily and disengaging. So if we balance that out, we would want to look at actually lowering the huge burst all of those bring, or you'll be looking at the era of melee and everyone crying no one plays ranged. I've played both so it'll be a wash for me, but I can see it happening.

    With TTK I'd cut roots in half and stuns should all be like 3 seconds. That would help melee. Some souls shouldnt have all the stuff in their trees as well.
    Shaman and Paragon *should* be globaling people over the course of 4-6 seconds. Ranged characters do it all the time.

    Shaman, of all the melee specs, by far needs a BF the most. NB already has it (But pays for this by being extremely hard to play and optimize in warfronts correctly), Paragon can be semi-ranged (Grasp the Horizons), Pyro is ranged and has a break free.

    I mean honestly. Reaver has competitive burst, as does pyro, with the current melee specs, and both have 15s break free teleports, as well as stuns.

    Melee specs aren't viable not because they can't reach their targets, but because they reach their targets, most of the time are CC'd, then kited, and during which they don't receive enough heals to allow them to reconnect.

    The most balanced I've seen melee is back in early storm legion, where melee with the above souls was death. Near instantly, and almost absolutely.

    There needs to be a reason to go melee, and at the moment, they are only there to provide challenges to players masochistic enough to play them with regularity. While it's true a NB with gear wrecks people, as does a shaman, or a paragon, it's also true that a reaver, MM or inq with gear wrecks people, and does so nearly as fast, nearly as consistently and with far less danger.

  2. #47
    Ascendant Snap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDagger View Post
    There needs to be a reason to go melee, and at the moment, they are only there to provide challenges to players masochistic enough to play them with regularity.
    To be honest, the main reason I play melee is because of consistency.
    Most melee specs are consistent when it come to burst.
    Shaman, you don't have to pray for a crit, you get it when you need it.
    Warlord passive crit chance on top of forced-crit Piercing Thrust is reliable.
    Paragon passive super high crit chance make it reliable.
    Assassin near-forced crits on stealth attacks and super high crit rate make them extremely reliable.
    Hell even Champion is consistent in it's own right... It can unleash an auto crit and smack people dead with Death Blossom because of it. (It suck because it's AoE but still!)
    Harbinger suck because it got crappy crit rate (and damage).

    When compared to ranged spec...
    Only ranged specs that are consistent with crits are Inquisitor and Marksman.
    Last edited by Snap; 06-12-2015 at 01:08 PM.
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  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    Ianto is by far much easier to have an argument with than you are.

    All of his posts are easy to read and understand while never derailing to random things that has nothing to do with the argument.

    You, on the other hand, barely make any sense and it's hard to even understand what you are trying to argue about.

    P.S. Ecru doesn't use Drowning Deluge (or warden as a subsoul), there is 3 DoTs and 1 debuff to apply from range and once in melee, it require 6 globals to complete the burst that is on a 1 minute cooldown and, unlike Paragon, it's not a simple facesmash on the keyboard to do the burst.
    On top of it, it leaves you vulnerable because you used a certain ability that is kind of important.

    Shaman definitely needs a second Break Free. There is one easy way to stop a Shaman burst. Not telling you what tho. Feel free to learn the proper Shaman and you may figure it out.

    Honestly, using Ecru as an example to why Shaman shouldn't have a second break free is stupid.
    Because the better PvP players in Rift can make Shaman look OP doesn't mean it's OP.
    You are one of those players i dont bother listening to. Lol. Dont worry i take no offense at your words since ive dismissed you several times.

    I stated the drowning deluge because i was hit by drowning deluge in my combat log fighting ecru on his shaman. Maybe we could take his word for it since you speak for everyone? I could easily see it in a spec since its barely into warden for a nice dot. At any rate it was there. Why not use ecru hes a good player.

    you want me to play shaman vs inq? Sure. Ill get you the results when i play again.

  4. #49
    Ascendant Zehne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrastion View Post
    I stated the drowning deluge because i was hit by drowning deluge in my combat log fighting ecru on his shaman. Maybe we could take his word for it since you speak for everyone? I could easily see it in a spec since its barely into warden for a nice dot. At any rate it was there. Why not use ecru hes a good player.
    last i checked drowning deluge wasn't a warden ability...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrastion View Post
    You are one of those players i dont bother listening to. Lol. Dont worry i take no offense at your words since ive dismissed you several times.

    I stated the drowning deluge because i was hit by drowning deluge in my combat log fighting ecru on his shaman. Maybe we could take his word for it since you speak for everyone? I could easily see it in a spec since its barely into warden for a nice dot. At any rate it was there. Why not use ecru hes a good player.

    you want me to play shaman vs inq? Sure. Ill get you the results when i play again.
    i don't have any warden in my spec, dunno where that came from. my shaman spec is 61/10 druid/5 inq. you think it does a ton of damage, so much that it would be overpowered with a second break or pretty much anything beyond what it has now, but in reality the spec is not only behind the best parsing shaman spec, but the best parsing shaman spec is behind every other melee soul in single target dps (including 61nb) besides 61harb.

    fortunately for mages harb will be buffed in the next few weeks, putting shaman way, way behind. shaman is great in pvp because of it's ability to force crits but don't kid yourself that the dps is somehow over the top compared to any other soul--it's behind all melee, and it's most certainly behind mm, reaver, inq, and pyro too when it comes to overall sustained dps.

    why does it only get one break? why does it only get 5% mitigation? why doesn't it have any cc at all? why does it have no utility? who knows, ask red hawk or the recently departed kervik if you can find him.

    and fwiw shaman disconnect dps is only ~60-65% of it's melee dps at <20m, which isn't bad, but considering what i just wrote above about it's overall dps, it doesn't really mean **** if ranged souls are doing 110% of my dps from 35m.

    edit; drowning deluge is the crafted trinket proc, same proc as core fragment.
    Last edited by ecru; 06-12-2015 at 05:24 PM.
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    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zehne View Post
    last i checked drowning deluge wasn't a warden ability...
    and then wrastion wonders why nobody takes him seriously

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecru View Post
    i don't have any warden in my spec, dunno where that came from. my shaman spec is 61/10 druid/5 inq. you think it does a ton of damage, so much that it would be overpowered with a second break or pretty much anything beyond what it has now, but in reality the spec is not only behind the best parsing shaman spec, but the best parsing shaman spec is behind every other melee soul in single target dps (including 61nb) besides 61harb.

    fortunately for mages harb will be buffed in the next few weeks, putting shaman way, way behind. shaman is great in pvp because of it's ability to force crits but don't kid yourself that the dps is somehow over the top compared to any other soul--it's behind all melee, and it's most certainly behind mm, reaver, inq, and pyro too when it comes to overall sustained dps.

    why does it only get one break? why does it only get 5% mitigation? why doesn't it have any cc at all? why does it have no utility? who knows, ask red hawk or the recently departed kervik if you can find him.

    and fwiw shaman disconnect dps is only ~60-65% of it's melee dps at <20m, which isn't bad, but considering what i just wrote above about it's overall dps, it doesn't really mean **** if ranged souls are doing 110% of my dps from 35m.

    edit; drowning deluge is the crafted trinket proc, same proc as core fragment.
    I don't know if you still PVP as shaman, but with the dot dispenser's running wild isn't necessary to spec into defiler for the cleanse ? I find no matter what spec I run, a self-cleanse is necessary, even though its useless. Like trying to empty the pacific ocean with a thimble.
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  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickalispicalis View Post
    even though its useless. Like trying to empty the pacific ocean with a thimble.
    You kind of answered your own question there.

    Quote Originally Posted by ecru View Post

    edit; drowning deluge is the crafted trinket proc, same proc as core fragment.
    Ah, I didn't think about whatever damage Wrastion was talking about. I just saw Warden.
    I feel so derp right now!
    I clearly recall Drowning Deluge as your trinket damage.
    With it's hundred of stupid hits reducing your overal crit rate in the parse.
    Last edited by Snap; 06-12-2015 at 06:44 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianto Jones View Post
    and then wrastion wonders why nobody takes him seriously
    Because I didnt memorize the name of every ability? I left it open in my post, inviting ecru to answer because i never stated it as fact. Theres a warden dot that i thought it might be. Things im unsure of i normally state, as i did. Thanks for pointing out this though. Turns out its a trinket proc. simple enough.

  10. #55
    Ascendant V1rul3n7's Avatar
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    So you have problems with regular CC.

    Well I have problems with VK and druid still having 30m pulls.

    The CC has been nerfed into the ground, I mean look at storm shackle.. players simply didn't obey the 30m CC designed to punish people for overextending so they crapped all over its damage but of course, they left warlord with a 30m pull (which could be 35m) for about a year, and it STILL exists because they didn't apply it across the board to every type of pull spec.

    Don't get me wrong, It doesn't bother me and I rarely get pulled (unless its by an invisible VK in cq due to some lag) but the principle just agitates me.

    What you should be QQ'ing about is the fact that healing is now totally pointless because of reaver with its festering wounds, and the massive ST dps.

    These souls are broken imba:

    1) Inquisitor
    2) Marksman
    3) Reaver
    4) Pyro
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  11. #56
    Champion CDagger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by V1rul3n7 View Post
    These souls are broken imba:

    1) Inquisitor
    2) Marksman
    3) Reaver
    4) Pyro
    I hope that these are in no particular order.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDagger View Post
    I hope that these are in no particular order.
    Nah they aren't. Just highlighting the obvious really.
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    These souls are broken imba:

    1) Inquisitor
    2) Marksman
    3) Reaver
    4) Pyro[/QUOTE]

    I agree with the top 4 but would put reaver ahead of the others, way way ahead lol
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  14. #59
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    Well, they weren't in any particular order really.

    Inquisitor is extremely tanky, does a lot of damage on its beams regardless of enemy debuffs and has very powerful utility. Generally in 1v1 an inquisitor will trump all four if played correctly.

    Pyromancer has a little more burst top end, but actually slows down on its sustained damage output capability once it burns out, has around the same utility as reaver but less than mm and inquisitor.

    Reaver has around the same sustained damage output as an inquisitor in ST and can become almost top tier (if not top tier) on aoe dps with the push of a button. The full cleanse and the passive healing debuff are its most broken attributes aswell as its total lack of slowdown on ability use and cooldowns.

    Marksman is a little like the inbetween of pyro and inquisitor, immune most of the time and more mobile than pyro.

    So all four are broken imba, but in different situations.

    Pyro focusing down solo individuals with a group. Inquisitor for basically everything, marksman for basically everything and reaver for that and AoE.

    The distinguishing feature is AoE damage output on reaver. Inquisitor has pretty poor/medium aoe dps output, as does pyro. Marksman is actually pretty high on its AoE damage output. Now given the range gap that reaver is meant to fill, its 20k infestations and ST dps is quite ridiculous if you compare it against a similar toggle/cleave class like stormcaller or warlock.

    Stormcaller is the most approximate to reaver in terms of its aoe damage output BUT stormcaller has like.. a crappy little pushback, a 2m cd on a pull together, and has to channel all of its aoe to one location rather than having its aoe following target like reaver. It also has much lower ST dps output (which is actually as it should be, its just reaver has too much ST imo).

    All four souls crap all over everything else in the game though. Even direct counter specs such as chlorodom wont hold up (mana drain/self heals + reflects??.. its like the PERFECT counter) simply because all four have WAY TOO MUCH DAMAGE COMPARED TO EVERYTHING ELSE!

    Full cleanse is also ridiculously imba, and kind of illustrates the anti mage bias.

    Lets see..

    Warrior - Shadow Warp - Full cleanse
    Cleric - Sterilize - Full cleanse
    Rogue - Cleanse Soul - Full cleanse
    Mage - Deny - Cleanse 3 Debuffs

    Durr.. Where is mages full cleanse? :P
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    The current problems in the game, in terms of PvP are this:

    1) As long as pulls exist, melee can never be truly balanced and viable. Reason is if melee is strong it simply becomes a case of who pulls who first into the melee mincemeat machine.

    Solution - Repurpose all taunts and pull abilities in tank souls or otherwise into either dps abilities or distruption abilities such as aoe pushbacks with varying attributes depending on the class. Remove all taunt mechanics from raids/dungeons. Add a 0 point selfbuff to all tank tree's which provides for threat generation mulitiplied based on the point investment into the tank souls (the soul gifts) - Scale threat generation off of damage done.

    Voila, shock pulse becomes your new ranged taunt, neural prod, searing vitality, any damage ability you have will provide for massive threat above and beyond ranged dpsers, pets and healers. Taunts are an old fashioned mechanic which should rightly be totally repurposed. No two tanks will pull exactly the same threat generation as dps will vary. (for tank swaps it could even be a 0 point toggle instead of a 0 point buff)

    Repurpose druid pull into a bursty ranged ability or some kind of other utility (maybe a mana wrench type ability?)

    2) Everything is too spammable!

    Most specs will never run out of energy or mana, so nobody has to THINK about what they are going to do next, everybody can just spam 444444cc444444cc444 without any penalty to either future damage output potential or CC use.

    3) DPS roles, particularly ST dps roles HAVE TOO MUCH CC

    Remove CC from souls like pyro, inquisitor etc and put it into support trees such as dominator, druid, necromancer, and aoe souls. Reduce the overall amount of CC in the game on pure damage souls.

    Repurpose tactician as a control spec, Tanks as control specs, Melee should still have very small amounts of CC from melee range only. Repurpose druid as a control spec. Every calling should have one kind of pvp friendly control soul for offspeccing for pvp CC.
    ST ranged dps should have interrupts only for beam countering.

    Make using CC cost significant amounts of mana, make mana costs significant on control and especially healing and high damage abilities. reduce the regeneration on stamina pools (with a lesser cost for energy users, depending on the types of ability used e.g. their damage output or characteristics such as heals or CC) Increase mana regeneration signficantly and mana costs significantly.

    Of course, This is a lot of design work, and knowing trion they will take my suggestions here and implement them poorly.. But oh well, It just had to be said.
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