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Thread: If You Want to Fix PvP Start Here

  1. #1
    Plane Walker
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    Default If You Want to Fix PvP Start Here

    You need to change how crowd control works in pvp. It's not even a secondary mechanic as it is. I know there are people who are incapable of understanding the value of CC but with some time perhaps at least some of them will see the light (I'm not talking about PvE'ers here, or casual pvpers-those who mix pve and pvp with most of their focus being on advancing PvE, I honestly don't care how PvP affects them).

    You need to have the following CC categories:
    Stun (Player is immobilized and loses control of character, does not break on damage)
    Incapacitate (Player is immobilized and loses control of char, does break on damage)
    Disorient (Player loses control of character, breaks on damage)
    Root/Snare (Player is immobilized but retains control of character, does not break on dmg)
    Slow (Player's movement speed is decreased)
    Silence (Player cannot cast spells)
    Disarm (Player cannot attack with weapons)

    These need to be separate categories which do not share diminishing returns. Diminishing returns, per category would be: 100% effective first application, 50% effective (duration) second application, 0% effective third application, with an 8 second timer before reset.

    Attacking a player from behind should increase the chance hits land, regardless of dodge, parry, block etc and a stunned player should not be able to avoid taking damage.

    With this system in place, and reordering of CC ability distribution, you can help the melee class out in pvp tremendously. Of course, this means players will have to learn to work, that skill will have to replace button mashing and that pvp will be less hack'n'slash than what it currently is.

    Last thing, you need to change the time it takes to get out of combat when you're not engaged. Knowing how and when to enter and exit combat in order to use OOC abilities is also an area that will increase skill but as it is, a single dot will keep you in combat even if you're on the other side of the map from an enemy player.

    There's more, but this would be a good place to start.
    Last edited by Emanresu; 05-27-2015 at 08:02 PM.
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  2. #2
    Rift Chaser
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    Default you forgot the MOST IMPORTANT THING :

    squirrels/sleep/mezz which BREAKS on PLAYER ABILITY damage, but DOES NOT BREAK on AUTOATTACKS or PET ATTACKS.

    seriously, im SICK of seeing people i mezzed o.1 sec ago break out just because i happened to freaking auto-attack them, or the pet bum-rushed them.

  3. #3
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by palemoons View Post
    squirrels/sleep/mezz which BREAKS on PLAYER ABILITY damage, but DOES NOT BREAK on AUTOATTACKS or PET ATTACKS.

    seriously, im SICK of seeing people i mezzed o.1 sec ago break out just because i happened to freaking auto-attack them, or the pet bum-rushed them.
    Make a macro to stop auto attacking/call back your pet? Also if you're ranged, running around will prevent you form autoattacking.


    To the OP, cc right now is a mess in this game. A lot has to do with spammable INSTANT cc too. Double insta squirrel for instance.
    You're also asking for a 8s reset which is way way wayyyyyy too low. 8s reset would allow ccs to be rotated on a player very easily.
    What should happen is a reallocation of which spec has which tools. Right now certain ranged specs offer way too much utility. For instance giving purges to melee only would become something that makes them appealing. Or something like a healing debuff like reavers have (and take it away from reavers)

  4. #4
    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by wanna993 View Post
    Make a macro to stop auto attacking/call back your pet? Also if you're ranged, running around will prevent you form autoattacking.


    To the OP, cc right now is a mess in this game. A lot has to do with spammable INSTANT cc too. Double insta squirrel for instance.
    You're also asking for a 8s reset which is way way wayyyyyy too low. 8s reset would allow ccs to be rotated on a player very easily.
    What should happen is a reallocation of which spec has which tools. Right now certain ranged specs offer way too much utility. For instance giving purges to melee only would become something that makes them appealing. Or something like a healing debuff like reavers have (and take it away from reavers)
    Good feedback, I just disagree with it, except for the part about CC being a mess. There is nothing inherently wrong with certain CC being insta-cast. If you can't not spam an ability that's a problem you need to fix, not the dev's. 8 seconds is fine, in my opinion. I want CC to be a primary mechanic and integral to pvp. It's not crazy because it works perfectly fine in other, similar games. What it does is force people to play more cognitively in almost everything they do, like managing break free's, positioning, los, cleanese, purges and teamwork. If you think about it, when you lay your first category of CC, you get 8 seconds to let it drop (from the time the effect wears off) to let the DR reset. If you use it again with that 8 seconds you get 50% and the timer refreshes, so you have 8 seconds from the time that affect wears off, until it refreshes and if you try hitting them again with it, you get zero effect and restart the timer. So it's not as crazy as you might think and it forces people to be more cerebral (this is usually why people don't like it).
    Unrated -- Now show me on this doll where the mean rogue touched you.

  5. #5
    Shadowlander
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    what are your other games that use a 8s reset?
    No offense but any validity you might have goes out of the window when you say instant cc (like squirrel not like stuns) is a good thing. You mention los and positioning, but if I can cc you instantly these two have no value. The point of los is to stop casted things (cc included).

  6. #6
    Rift Disciple
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    People also don't like cc because it's not so fun to spend a large % of time not being able to do anything. It's not just because it's too cerebral.

    I think 8 seconds is too short too. It's good that it resets on every use and not just first uses but you skipped right over the topic of rotation which was mentioned.

  7. #7
    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by wanna993 View Post
    what are your other games that use a 8s reset?
    No offense but any validity you might have goes out of the window when you say instant cc (like squirrel not like stuns) is a good thing. You mention los and positioning, but if I can cc you instantly these two have no value. The point of los is to stop casted things (cc included).
    What if it was insta-cast with a cooldown?
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  8. #8
    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
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    Funnily enough, what you described, OP, is what Rift's DR system looked like pre-SL. I think the CC lockout might have been a bit longer than 8 seconds, though.

    As for Transmogrify, it should have a cast time (1.5s I think). Dominator is so much more than squirrel spam and this nerf wouldn't really do much to harm the soul's effectiveness. It really only nerfs the bad Doms who are nevertheless very effective because no CD insta-cast CC that can affect two targets from 35m range is ridiculous and overpowered.

    oGCD ranged hard CCs like Flash Burn, Mind Break, and Deaden need to die a fiery death as well.

  9. #9
    Fia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emanresu View Post
    If You Want to Fix PvP Start Here
    [...]
    They don't want to. V:

    So basically before you start giving them ideas, first you have to give them the motivation to even think about trying to fix PvP. No offense but good luck with that. ...
    Last edited by Fia; 05-28-2015 at 03:16 PM.
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  10. #10
    Champion Fallse's Avatar
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    Default Awful

    Absolutely awful ideas ... there are many isssues that need addressing in pvp MORE CC is not even remotely close to a good idea.

    Things that make pvp not fun ... lack of heals (among many things)
    Things that annoy the few non pm healers in pvp ... chain cc

    With the current ttk in this game being what on average 3-4 gcd's if a player is not getting heals and a few ppl are dpsing them down ... healers already have a hard time keeping players alive with the amount of cc in the game. DR seems broken more often than not and it seems like it is possible to keep a healer chain cc'd I am not sure what sort of pvp your looking for but looking at the reality of the game, I can think of a dozen things that are more important:

    Melee viability, Gear Progression, Class balance, WF team balancing, lack of pug healers (ie healing is not considered fun by enough players so there are rarely enough healers), lack of viable spec diversity for pvp, - and before anyone makes the comment I run in PM's like 99% of the time and we always have heals ... the problem is our heals are often the only heals in the raid.

    Other than this thread I do not think I have EVER heard someone complain that we need more cc in the game . If anything the dr mechanism needs to be looked at because too often it seems to not work properly. If the object is to play the game .. any mechanic that takes character control away from the player is imo a cheesy fluff mechanic.

  11. #11
    Fia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallse View Post
    Things that make pvp not fun ... lack of heals (among many things)
    Imo the healing is just fine atm. The problem is the same one as always: Bad healz will complain about not being able to keep ppl alive cuz too much dps, bad dps will complain about not being able to kill a healer cuz too much healz. At least I don't have trouble keeping ppl alive for short burst phases (as long as my mana lasts) as a sentinel and I don't have trouble killing healers either. I am full T1 raid equipped though (even though all weapons are upgraded to relic), so in that regard I do have it much easier as healers/dps that don't have easy access to raids (and basically this is where the bolstering issue starts).

    But other than that I do agree with you.
    Last edited by Fia; 05-28-2015 at 03:46 PM.
    Fiia@Typhiria | Asthea@Hailol
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  12. #12
    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallse View Post
    Absolutely awful ideas ... there are many isssues that need addressing in pvp MORE CC is not even remotely close to a good idea.

    Things that make pvp not fun ... lack of heals (among many things)
    Things that annoy the few non pm healers in pvp ... chain cc

    With the current ttk in this game being what on average 3-4 gcd's if a player is not getting heals and a few ppl are dpsing them down ... healers already have a hard time keeping players alive with the amount of cc in the game. DR seems broken more often than not and it seems like it is possible to keep a healer chain cc'd I am not sure what sort of pvp your looking for but looking at the reality of the game, I can think of a dozen things that are more important:

    Melee viability, Gear Progression, Class balance, WF team balancing, lack of pug healers (ie healing is not considered fun by enough players so there are rarely enough healers), lack of viable spec diversity for pvp, - and before anyone makes the comment I run in PM's like 99% of the time and we always have heals ... the problem is our heals are often the only heals in the raid.

    Other than this thread I do not think I have EVER heard someone complain that we need more cc in the game . If anything the dr mechanism needs to be looked at because too often it seems to not work properly. If the object is to play the game .. any mechanic that takes character control away from the player is imo a cheesy fluff mechanic.

    The pvp in this game isn't that bad, actually, but the pvpers are. You can usually snuff out the baddies by finding out who doesn't like CC.

    Also, I've played since release and the CC/DR system has never been as I posted above. It's slightly different now, but not much.
    Unrated -- Now show me on this doll where the mean rogue touched you.

  13. #13
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emanresu View Post
    The pvp in this game isn't that bad, actually, but the pvpers are. You can usually snuff out the baddies by finding out who doesn't like CC.

    Also, I've played since release and the CC/DR system has never been as I posted above. It's slightly different now, but not much.

    Dude you're talking abuot baddies while suggesting an uber ******ed 8s reset.
    You're also asking for insta squirrel like cc with cd. Like I really have no idea what to tell you.

    Things like that need a cast, read what Ianto said. I also agree about the oGCD stuns.

    Anyway while cc is a bit of a mess (****s over souls that are based on it at times), you can't just adjust cc in a vacuum. You'd have to tweak cc durations, how much different cc categories classes can get by combining souls. And also other things like how many ppl are in a wf, since more ppl means higher cc chain chance etc. And it will never happen :-)

  14. #14
    Prophet of Telara Meowy's Avatar
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    I sometimes wonder what would happen if one day, all souls that are not categorized as DPS souls suddenly got 'banned'.
    Serale@Faeblight

  15. #15
    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meowy View Post
    I sometimes wonder what would happen if one day, all souls that are not categorized as DPS souls suddenly got 'banned'.
    April Fool's day next year?

    To be honest, I don't think it would be too different. People would die more, but ultimately, the good players will find a way to complete the objectives (Stealth OP) and the rest will keep doing what they've always done: standing in mid, attacking a random target until they die.
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