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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: "Melee in general have a lot of problems in PvP" -Red Hawk

  1. #61
    General of Telara littlepoit's Avatar
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    the problem with making melee "viable" (i put viable into quotes since melee IS viable right now just not as good as some range spec) is that suddenly everybody starts playing the best melee spec with a healbot and BOOM you have a balance issue that is a lot worse than the current one, we are back to lolwarrior land...

    don't get me wrong there are lots of players playing range WITH a pockethealer ( those are the true baddies) but range doesn't benefit from a healbot as much as melee for obvious reasons.

    Also melee doesn't mean **** in this game because every spec can have disconnects , 20m abilities or even 35m by spending 2 points in a range spec. i;m fine with removing any range abilities from melee souls but it still won't solve the fact that you can get a range builder and finisher in another tree.

    there should be some kind of lock to block range abilities as soon as you have spent X amount of points in a melee soul. which would probably impact hybrids negatively but i can live with that. (trion has pretty much killed all hybrids anyways to avoid pvp balance headaches)
    Last edited by littlepoit; 05-25-2015 at 11:54 PM.

  2. #62
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    What would help, atleast tankier melee souls. (Tanks in PvP? THe hell is this) would be withdrawing the block rework. It is a bit odd that you can't use your shield to block an incoming fireball, a magic infused sword or anything that is not physical.

    Yes, it was all to simplify the various dodging mechanics, but downright nerf block that used to be nice support stat. So like with good armor, I'd like to see layer of defenses

    The first layer is block, requiring a shield (or WL's perk) that has chance to reduce/nullify all incoming damage.
    Then there'd be deflect that would act like parry back in the day; a second chance to reduce/nullify melee damage and dodge would do the same, but against ranged.

    And the last bastion is your EHP, derived from.. you guessed it, endurance, resists and armor!


    Or give tanky ones ability to shield people behind them. Make it an ability called.. hold the line that gives everyone behind the user a damage reduction to ranged damage.

  3. #63
    Ascendant ecru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlepoit View Post
    the problem with making melee "viable" (i put viable into quotes since melee IS viable right now just not as good as some range spec) is that suddenly everybody starts playing the best melee spec with a healbot and BOOM you have a balance issue that is a lot worse than the current one, we are back to lolwarrior land...

    don't get me wrong there are lots of players playing range WITH a pockethealer ( those are the true baddies) but range doesn't benefit from a healbot as much as melee for obvious reasons.

    Also melee doesn't mean **** in this game because every spec can have disconnects , 20m abilities or even 35m by spending 2 points in a range spec. i;m fine with removing any range abilities from melee souls but it still won't solve the fact that you can get a range builder and finisher in another tree.

    there should be some kind of lock to block range abilities as soon as you have spent X amount of points in a melee soul. which would probably impact hybrids negatively but i can live with that. (trion has pretty much killed all hybrids anyways to avoid pvp balance headaches)
    so make melee specs harder to play but more rewarding along with reducing ranged dps to a reasonable level, and by reasonable i don't mean 1-3% less than melee dps. either that or reduce incoming ranged damage by melee souls across the board. i was 3 shotting fully geared players as shaman in 2.8 and i was never even crit power capped because i had terrible luck with gear rng, but how many people complained about that? no one played it. the soul is "better" now with disconnects due to 30m punishing strike/20m fervent/ekkehards proccing frostbite but still less viable in pvp than it was in 2.8.

    the balance between melee and ranged dps, utility, and ramp-up to full dps is just skewed too far in one direction.

    nerfs to ranged dps or buffs to melee dps don't necessarily have to come in the form of direct damage buffs and nerfs either. ramp-up to full dps after a target switch is extremely important when TTK is as low as it is and an increase in the ramp-up time for ranged and decrease for certain melee specs would do a lot to push more players towards melee. shaman of course excels at target switching because it's just frozen wrath and you're good to go which makes it very good in this aspect, but rogue melee souls can be especially bad with ramp-up due to their reliance on bleeds, self buffs triggered by from stealth attacks (cloak and dagger, dark malady), dots like fiery spike, and duelist pose/hack and slash/deadly dance in the case of bladedancer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mannson View Post
    And the last bastion is your EHP, derived from.. you guessed it, endurance, resists and armor!
    .
    melee souls getting %endurance or %base hp as soul gifts might be something to look at. in SL as a rogue you could spec into riftstalker and get an extra 30-35% hp from a 10 point investment in the tree when %base hp was %endurance, but now that same investment gets you about 5%. clerics could dip into justicar for more %endurance, and courage of the bear which is 6 points into the shaman tree was %endurance too. now courage of the bear is a worthless buff that gives you an extra 1.85% hp.
    Last edited by ecru; 05-26-2015 at 06:24 AM.
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  4. #64
    Ascendant butkus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecru View Post
    so make melee specs harder to play but more rewarding along with reducing ranged dps to a reasonable level, and by reasonable i don't mean 1-3% less than melee dps. either that or reduce incoming ranged damage by melee souls across the board. i was 3 shotting fully geared players as shaman in 2.8 and i was never even crit power capped because i had terrible luck with gear rng, but how many people complained about that? no one played it. the soul is "better" now with disconnects due to 30m punishing strike/20m fervent/ekkehards proccing frostbite but still less viable in pvp than it was in 2.8.

    the balance between melee and ranged dps, utility, and ramp-up to full dps is just skewed too far in one direction.

    nerfs to ranged dps or buffs to melee dps don't necessarily have to come in the form of direct damage buffs and nerfs either. ramp-up to full dps after a target switch is extremely important when TTK is as low as it is and an increase in the ramp-up time for ranged and decrease for certain melee specs would do a lot to push more players towards melee. shaman of course excels at target switching because it's just frozen wrath and you're good to go which makes it very good in this aspect, but rogue melee souls can be especially bad with ramp-up due to their reliance on bleeds, self buffs triggered by from stealth attacks (cloak and dagger, dark malady), dots like fiery spike, and duelist pose/hack and slash/deadly dance in the case of bladedancer.



    melee souls getting %endurance or %base hp as soul gifts might be something to look at. in SL as a rogue you could spec into riftstalker and get an extra 30-35% hp from a 10 point investment in the tree when %base hp was %endurance, but now that same investment gets you about 5%. clerics could dip into justicar for more %endurance, and courage of the bear which is 6 points into the shaman tree was %endurance too. now courage of the bear is a worthless buff that gives you an extra 1.85% hp.
    "melee souls getting %endurance or %base hp as soul gifts might be something to look at."

    i was saying that back in SL when the warlord nerfs were announced.without the old warlord soul gifts -stam- damage- mig warriors have no where we can pick up that extra survivability.outside of vk d-cds are few and far between in the warrior souls.soul gifts like what warlord had would be the most simple way to fix alot of issues.
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  5. #65
    Ascendant Snap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecru View Post
    melee souls getting %endurance or %base hp as soul gifts might be something to look at. in SL as a rogue you could spec into riftstalker and get an extra 30-35% hp from a 10 point investment in the tree when %base hp was %endurance, but now that same investment gets you about 5%. clerics could dip into justicar for more %endurance, and courage of the bear which is 6 points into the shaman tree was %endurance too. now courage of the bear is a worthless buff that gives you an extra 1.85% hp.
    I'm all for the tank souls getting their endurance to HP ratio back to SL, just not melee souls getting that as soul gift.
    We don't need another broken Warlord.

    The problem with giving tanks their endurance to HP ratio back is that we would end up with ~300k HP tanks walking around warfronts.
    At 158k HP, nearly 9k endurance, if we go back to having ~300% endurance ratio, I would gain a whoping ~180k HP, if not more.
    They'd also need to change all the content to work with such a change.
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  6. #66
    General of Telara littlepoit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecru View Post
    so make melee specs harder to play
    we all know what the problem is here, it's been there since day1... and really easy to fix. just remove the macro system. the day playing a melee warrior becomes like playing a dom then we can have nice things.
    i like all the proposed changes but while the game is not build around 1v1 trion has to make sure they don't create monstruosity like RS/NB.

  7. #67
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    The macro system is fine, it's just that most abilities are so made to be macroed in, if some had no CD, but X ability buffed or added extra effect to Y ability which then increased the power of B Finisher that then gave you survavibility buff that can be consumed by K ability to deal either CC or extra damage.

    And that's why I like warlord, not as complicated as I said, there's just things that are quite ingenious in the buffs and abilities. Like ranged damage mitigation when you use an ability, refresh on few abilities after one ability. And of course, my favorite.. Piercing thrust/Wave of Steel mini-finishers!

    If anything, The guard abilities (amnesty, defend, intercede) should be buffed atleast, with their "guard" immunity timer removed. After all, it's sharing the pain!

    Or even ability that allows a squishy melee a window of opportunity to charge in.. like Ahem
    "Duck and cover", debuffs up to 10 nearby enemies to deal 30-40% less ranged damage for 5-10 seconds.
    OOOR, For 5-10 seconds, 50% of the ranged damage the caster received is transferred to friendly target as long as the target stays in 15m radius, call the ability "Hide behind the tank"

    So, let the ranged classes have ther fun time having constant opportunities to deal damage, but the hard hitting melees have to capitalize on one moment to wreck a formation of ranged people without melee protection.

    EDIT:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWbzlkqG3K8
    This sums up my feeling when melee is not viable. I just like to hit things with a giant weapon.
    Last edited by Mannson; 05-27-2015 at 06:02 AM.

  8. #68
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    As I see it, melee has 2 problems here: survivability and mobility.

    2 ways to resolve that:
    -either up both an appropriate (I reapeat, appropriate) amount;
    -or up the dps above the ones coming from ranged souls, considering that with greater risks come greater rewards.

    That's it, either have the melee dps become as secure as the ranged one or have it become a bet for better result than ranged.

  9.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecru View Post
    so when are these changes coming so i know when to plan on logging in again?
    Predicting when specific changes are moving from "desire" to "intent" to "in the works" to "released" is always a tricky subject. I try and stay out of the fortune telling business, I leave that to my mother in law.

    Right now the Systems team is working on the new calling pretty heavily, so it's not an imminent change. After the bulk of that work is done, I expect they'll be planning out future changes, but we're not there yet. Another thing to think about is something like this would be a pretty significant change, so we'd certainly pre-announce it and ask for testing feedback.

    I would expect a different addition to PvP that's in the works before that specific change. ;)

  10. #70
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    because more conquest is just what everyone's asking for

  11.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianto Jones View Post
    because more conquest is just what everyone's asking for
    Swing and a miss. But good attempt!

  12. #72
    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
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    well colour me pleasantly shocked

    That said, it doesn't matter what you add to PvP; the game is rotting in every area because of the lack of class development. "We're adding a new calling" really is not an acceptable excuse. It's like punching out your players' teeth then offering to sell them dentures.

  13. #73
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Swing and a miss. But good attempt!
    what ever it is, can you let the team members involved know that it is not to late to include lakes/rivers/pits of boiling lava, please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    I would expect a different addition to PvP that's in the works before that specific change. ;)
    Surprises here tend to not be as sucessfull as hoped. See gear unification. Some details and the opportunity for feedback and suggestions EARLY would probably be a good idea.

  15. #75
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Swing and a miss. But good attempt!
    You should get rid of the Elo, black listing. All your system is doing is griefing individual solo queue'ers in an attempt to give premades a challenge and it is failing horribly. How can you get behind such a system? It isn't even about the money.. It is about being a decent person at this point. When you built the system did you consider this fact? That players will directly be blacklisted and placed in near impossible situations most of the time? Random matchmaking would have been much better and even then I really think it wasn't random at all. Since I barely landed on any of the premade teams back then as well. There is definitely some internal screw you mechanics in place and it needs to go.
    Last edited by Planetx; 05-27-2015 at 11:03 PM.

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