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Thread: Why doesn't RIFT support Melee play ?

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    Plane Walker Nickalispicalis's Avatar
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    Default Why doesn't RIFT support Melee play ?

    Is range the only supported game style ? In PVP its impossible to play Melee. Do they want everyone to play range only ?

    Other games are not this way. I am curious to know why RIFT took this route.

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    Ascendant spaceboots's Avatar
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    easier for Trion I imagine. I'm sure if they had more time and $$$ someone would do something. I bet it's on their plates, but the key would be picking one soul, and PMing them which numbers of already existing talents to tweak for the greatest good for least work.
    Last edited by spaceboots; 05-21-2015 at 08:05 AM.

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    Plane Touched
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    Impossible to play melee in pvp? I play shamen in pvp with the healer synergy crystal all the time and do awesome with it. Its much more fun to play then inquisitor and has nothing that can be inturrupted. I usually target and kill healers with it.

    I also see a lot of rogues playing melee in wfs and the odd paragon here or there. When im healing I hate having melee focus me.
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    Plane Walker Nickalispicalis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabnlab View Post
    Impossible to play melee in pvp? I play shamen in pvp with the healer synergy crystal all the time and do awesome with it. Its much more fun to play then inquisitor and has nothing that can be inturrupted. I usually target and kill healers with it.

    I also see a lot of rogues playing melee in wfs and the odd paragon here or there. When im healing I hate having melee focus me.
    This is not helpful at all. Whenever someone addresses a problem, why is that someone always has to chime in that everything is fine, when clearly the majority feel that it is not. I have never see your character in W/F before. I will assume though that you are talking about playing in the 65 bracket.

    You must have a secret that no one else knows about that is giving you such success. It is the healing crystal that is making the difference is it ? Or you might be playing a different game then me, for what I see in most W/F's (There are some exceptions such as codex and antechamber) is lumps of players on either side of each firing range attacks at one and other, until one side starts to weaken. If you as a melee try to go after the healer or anyone else in this scenario, you are going to be dead. So you will be reduced to doing cruddy lightning attacks from your group, 50% of the dps that you would normally put out as an Inquisitor, and contributing towards your team taking a loss. Druid, at least you can port someone and try to kill them that way, no such luck with Shaman. Then again, I have not seen anyone play Druid in 65 W/F in ages either. Then again, they may not know about using the healing crystal as you suggest, so things may begin to change.
    Last edited by Nickalispicalis; 05-21-2015 at 02:15 PM.

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    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
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    It's not at all that it's impossible to play melee in pvp. It's that it is more difficult and fewer are good at it. Ranged will always be easier, especially in pvp. Rift very much supports melee and I see plenty of people playing melee in pvp. And Jab wasn't saying that "everything is fine" but rather that your extreme statement was not entirely truthful. As far as "supporting" goes, Rift supports both. It's not that Rift doesn't support melee, it's that there aren't enough advantages in playing melee in pvp to make the large majority of the population play melee. If I can sit at 35m away and kill you while you're still trying to get into melee range, I'm going to. Rift's model lately has been getting more people to do more things, so when you have more pve players in pvp, you're not going to get nearly as many players using pvp oriented specs. So, your assumption that Rift wants "everyone to play range only" is very inaccurate.
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    Telaran
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    I also believe it entirely depends on the warfront. Whitefall steppes for example is more ranged based. Whereas blighted antechamber can be very beneficial to run melee. I know i run paragon in Blighted with great success.

    So as it stands I think there are more ranged favorable warfronts and so it's more common to see the specs.

  7. #7
    Prophet of Telara Arthritis's Avatar
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    In my Rift PvP experience, the ONLY melee friendly warfront is Black Garden. But you need one massive dedicated healer to constantly heal you. So long as you have that support, you will be unstoppable.

    I have not been able to replicate my results from Black Garden in any other warfront.

    Oh. And when I say Black Garden, I mean, Black Garden. Not the variations of Black Garden that came later to shut up the snowflakes and min-maxxers.

    It never use to be this way. In the beginning, melee was the only way to play and I loved going toe-to-toe with other full melee players in warfronts. It was pure joy (for me) to kill and die one on one, or more-than-one on one in straight up melee. Now, its all about hiding at range and dotting someone down and then slapping them with a ranged shot. Its literally a tab-targeter's dream - no skill involved or needed (even though there really is no such thing as skill in this kind of video game. )

    Play ranged and just enjoy it as best you can, I guess. It could be worse.


  8. #8
    RIFT Guide Writer
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    The problem with melee is the perception of melee being weak causing a stupid placebo effect.

    No, seriously.

    Melee percieved as being weak -> less melees -> More range -> more range tab targeting on to fewer melees -> those melees getting nuked faster -> those melees start seeing melee as being weak.

    It's a vicious cycle, even though Paragon, NB, and Shaman can crush players. It's not that melee is weak. it's that its been seen as weak for so long that there aren't enough Melee to share the damage any more for it to be viable.

    This is a pretty easy fix, tbh, if you're willing to lie to players. Give melee a 30% damage reduction in PVP for a week and announce it, then ninja it away by 5% each time once people have started meleeing again.

    Course, this breaks the player base's trust if ever found out, so no psychological shenanigans here.
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    Plane Walker Nickalispicalis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artewig View Post
    It's not at all that it's impossible to play melee in pvp. It's that it is more difficult and fewer are good at it. Ranged will always be easier, especially in pvp. Rift very much supports melee and I see plenty of people playing melee in pvp. And Jab wasn't saying that "everything is fine" but rather that your extreme statement was not entirely truthful. As far as "supporting" goes, Rift supports both. It's not that Rift doesn't support melee, it's that there aren't enough advantages in playing melee in pvp to make the large majority of the population play melee. If I can sit at 35m away and kill you while you're still trying to get into melee range, I'm going to. Rift's model lately has been getting more people to do more things, so when you have more pve players in pvp, you're not going to get nearly as many players using pvp oriented specs. So, your assumption that Rift wants "everyone to play range only" is very inaccurate.
    I am sorry, but i don't not see a lot of people playing melee in W/F's. You get the odd Rogue Sin here and there, but that is about it.

    As far as RIFT getting more people playing and participating in PVP, I feel the opposite is true. I see less and less people participating all the time. In addition, far from playing different specs, I see little variation at all. The mage will be a pyro, the Warrior Reaver, The Rogue marks, Cleric/Inquisitor. There is a little more variation with the healing specs, but not much.

    As far as RIFT "Supporting" melee play, what i mean is recognizing that the system they have designed doesn't do it, and to make some changes. Lots of suggestions have been made such as giving them a damage bonus when they get in melee range, of giving range specs a damage penalty when they are in short range.

    The reason why I made this post is that I really like RIFT, but I can't get any of my friends to try it because most of them favor a warrior type game-play and RIFT has a reputation of being a Rangefest.

    Its hurting their numbers, I am sure of this. I wish they would make some changes. Instead, the opposite seems to be true. They changed the warrior class into a dot dispenser, albeit, a very powerful one, so I can only summarize that they are comfortable with the approach they are taking.
    Last edited by Nickalispicalis; 05-21-2015 at 02:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickalispicalis View Post
    I am sorry, but i don't not see a lot of people playing melee in W/F's. You get the odd Rogue Sin here and there, but that is about it.
    Hve you seen how stupidly easy Reaver is to play? Reaver is learning your ABCs compared to Paragon being your Thesis essay. Paragon is also basically the anti-range Melee attacker because of it being able to gut a range damage against itself. The problem with Para is that it's based on the design of "i'm not the only melee taking range damage" so it fails when everyone and their cats focus him.

    Mages don't have a melee spec to speak of that's viable until Habr finally gets buffs like 3 months later.

    Shamans actually had to get their Deep Freeze nerfed for being huge CC and got its damage boost to be more reliable in the same go.

    And NB based specs kind of just murder the crap out of people.
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    Im just saying its wrong to say melee is impossible in pvp, because its not, not even by a long shot.

    I honestly dont have anymore issue staying alive or killing anyone with shamen then i do with inquisitor. The healing crystal does help with survivability. Ive seen as high as 1200-1500 hps on top of doing 6k+dps (in a wf). When im on someone i'm constantly circling them, staying behind them as much as possible. Shamen has a lot of utility to help stay in melee, so dcs are no more of an issue then LOS or having big spells inturrupted is in ranged

    Im not saying melee is best in every wf, but I do find myself using shamen more the inquisitor in most of them, when im not healing of course, cause i do puri a lot in wfs too, since no one seems to like to heal, And when i do puri, im always getting focused by melee, and they seem to be the hardest to shake.
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    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
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    There are plenty of melee souls that are fine and do really great damage: Paragon, Warlord, Nightblade, Assassin, and Shaman. Harbinger is trash but it's supposedly getting a buff... some day.

    The problem is entirely that ranged souls have too much utility and survivability. Pyro has too much CC. Inquisitor has too much self-healing. Marksman has too much CC and too many escape tools. Reaver has too much mitigation, too much mobility, too much CC resistance, too many escape tools, too much utility, and too much cleave.

    All of this is a result of devs listening to player feedback, and QQers getting everything they want, unchecked and with no real regard for PvP balance.
    Last edited by Ianto Jones; 05-21-2015 at 03:06 PM.

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    Ascendant ecru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evantide View Post
    Shamans actually had to get their Deep Freeze nerfed for being huge CC and got its damage boost to be more reliable in the same go.
    nah it wasn't a nerf at all, still works the same as it did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Hawk View Post
    Melee in general have a lot of problems in PvP. Melee soul representation is much lower than we'd like it to be. Fixing that will require more systemic changes to the rules of the game, not patchwork fixes to each melee soul.

    The tuning changes we previously made to Shaman were intended primarily for PvE, though any PvP benefit they might have is a happy ancillary bonus
    fairly recent quote from red hawk. they're "aware" of the problem, but from my point of view all of the changes made from when 3.0 went live until now have pushed melee away from viability or desirability, so it's really their own fault for not realizing the impact the sum of all of the calling/soul changes would have on melee representation.

    i've offered up thousands of words to both red hawk and archonix via pm months ago on these issues and potential solutions, but nothing has changed besides a ~5% increase in shaman dps, which wasn't the issue in pvp to begin with. shaman still parses behind inquisitor though because reasons
    Last edited by ecru; 05-21-2015 at 03:14 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecru View Post
    nah it wasn't a nerf at all, still works the same as it did.
    Didn't it used to freeze everyone in the area and be cast off shaman and got changed to on the target with a limit (For the CC part only)?

    Swear I read about that during the changes.
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    Plane Walker Nickalispicalis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evantide View Post
    Hve you seen how stupidly easy Reaver is to play? Reaver is learning your ABCs compared to Paragon being your Thesis essay. Paragon is also basically the anti-range Melee attacker because of it being able to gut a range damage against itself. The problem with Para is that it's based on the design of "i'm not the only melee taking range damage" so it fails when everyone and their cats focus him.

    Mages don't have a melee spec to speak of that's viable until Habr finally gets buffs like 3 months later.

    Shamans actually had to get their Deep Freeze nerfed for being huge CC and got its damage boost to be more reliable in the same go.

    And NB based specs kind of just murder the crap out of people.
    Well I think Shaman's biggest problem is its terrible damage mitigation. Its got great burst and you should win most 1 vs 1 fights, but with most people playing range, unless you have a pocket healer, things will be hard for you. I am not a fan of ride the lightning either. The way it works a present, is not like a typical warrior charge and stun is suppose too. Often times, your opponent isn't even there when you arrive. Also, your only CC break free is tied to it. It should be independent of it. If you are trying to get away from someone, lightning to someone else makes little sense. Druid's Fae extraction and Fae Step works much, much better.


    I have however seen one player, play Shaman very successfully in w/f's. He wracks up huge numbers on the scoreboard, but, based on observation, I suspect that he is using some sort of speed hack.

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