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Thread: The Great Rift Debate, Part 3: Is Rift PvP Beyond Repair?

  1. #1
    Rift Master Shedelin's Avatar
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    Default The Great Rift Debate, Part 3: Is Rift PvP Beyond Repair?

    Title says it all, but I'll elaborate for the 10-year old kids in the room:

    Is the PvP in Rift too damaged to be even repaired by Trion? And why or why not?

    Begin the third and final part of the Great Rift Debate...now!

  2. #2
    Ascendant Seshatar's Avatar
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    No, it's not that bad and there is still a lot room for improvement, but in a game you can fix/change almost everything.
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  3. #3
    Ascendant
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    Rift PvP is ok... not the worst I've tried... yes it's not very balanced, and yes it's heavily macro-driven spam but there are worse pvp games out there... like PvP in Diablo 2 and PoE is worse than Rift... you get the idea...

  4. #4
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Riane's Avatar
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    They really need to fix the matchmaking system. Right now it's just horrible.

    Even back when Prestige mattered and you had "brackets" based off of ranking, it was still a lot better than what they've developed now. Once in awhile, you had undergeared (and not within the bracket's ranking for prestige) sneak in, but it wasn't a nuisance. I still won and lost WFs back then (and that's when I actually solo queued!)

    Right now, it's just so frustrating I want to give up on PVP in this game and devote my time to another game despite playing this for over four years now. That's how much PVP sucks right now.

  5. #5
    Shadowlander
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    PvP is pretty boring overall, nothing new there. Matchmaking system blows, especially if you solo queue. Rarely do you see any "unique" specs, makes it pretty simplistic to kill folks.

    The warfronts aren't all that interesting, but they rarely are in any game.
    "Gas Station" is just who's got more healers.
    "Maze Land" is just annoying.

    There isn't much point to doing PvP now aside from completing your weeklies. Every day I do my crafting dailies, pop into a warfront, and then hide in my dimension and play the Sims.

    I guess the best part of PvP is playing a spec everyone hates. At least I get the best hate-tells. Some are fairly cringe-worthy but for the most part it's a cheap form of entertainment.

    Cheers! Aly~

  6. #6
    Plane Touched Aysander's Avatar
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    PvP in a game that is primarily designed from a PvE aspect which cannot properly be balanced without adverse effects on said PvE aspects will never be perfect.

    However, Rift's is okay for the most part...just needs to do some fix ups to match making as others have mentioned, and maybe make some kind of benefit to not being a DPS in WFs. lol.
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  7. #7
    Champion of Telara
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    I think the only way to ensure Rift has a long term commitment from players is to become more involved in that aspect of the game. Sponsor a yearly tournament for RL prizes, do some monthly pvp events... show that you are committed to providing the best product you can. Right now, it feels like band-aids and sugar pills.
    Last edited by SmidgePlays; 05-06-2015 at 09:57 AM.
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  8. #8
    Rift Master
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    Yes it's that bad. It's working as intended. They wanted to kill it dead. They succeeded.

  9. #9
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by tirza View Post
    Yes it's that bad. It's working as intended. They wanted to kill it dead. They succeeded.
    If the goal is to kill it dead, I really wish they'd take those PVE marks that I could use to gear up out of the rewards and stick em elsewhere.

    They're keeping it on life support by forcing otherwise PVE-only players to choose between giving up a substantial amount of PVE gearing, or doing PVP they don't enjoy or want to participate in.

  10. #10
    Plane Touched
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    I really enjoy the PvP in this game (even made a Youtube channel based around). I feel like all of the recent changes have been pretty bad though with the gear unification, Ghar Station and Maze being the most hated warfronts behind Port Scion, newest CQ map being a lop-sided blowout nearly every single match and everyone leaves immediately after being put on the low point team, etc. The good changes that they have done recently seems to be fixing what was initially messed up with PvP rewards, gear tuning, etc.

    Is it beyond repair? Depends on Trion's stance on it all. The question that most would like to ask is if they plan to continue doing what they are doing and make less people enjoy PvPing?

    Personally I'd like to see PvP gear come back so I can quit upsetting the PvE crowd by suggesting that my afk-able warfronts should gear me out as fast as dungeons do. Quit killing everyone and upsetting so many by forcing the gear unification. Also I'd like to see PvP taken to a more enjoyable setting besides just CQ and Warfronts. I know my funnest PvP experiences were always large scale such as Dark Age of Camelot's conquering lands. Sieging castles, running groups or entire zergs to fight the enemies, etc. But then again, that was mostly possible because of three-sided warfare. If one team got too strong, the other two could combine and fight them together. It doesn't work in Rift's CQ map because the match is over in 5 minutes. No time to mount an offense. Well, and other reasons, of course.

    Edit: My idea for a gear fix is to bring back PvP gear but make the best gear about as good as upgraded dungeon gear in PvE situations. That way there is still incentive to do PvE and get raid drops for PvPers that want to cross over, but they don't feel shafted in the overall scope of it all. Just an idea that can be modified as needed.
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  11. #11
    Plane Walker
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    A quick list of my issues with the current PVP:
    • Lack of good match making.
    • Increasingly less incentive to PVP outside of the daily/weekly rewards as players become more progessed in this expansion.
    • Removal of the faction system with no replacement (i.e. guild versus guild).
    • And removal of all stimuli of open world pvp. Achievements, Rifts, Dailies
    • CQ Steppes does not provide a good player experiance yet it is qued just as much as Stillmore (not sayin Stillmore is perfect by any means)
    Last edited by Sencas; 05-06-2015 at 01:40 PM.
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  12. #12
    Champion of Telara
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    The Great Rift Debate, Part 3: Is Rift PvP Beyond Repair?
    Can they fix it, absolutely.
    Will they fix it..... should be the question.

  13. #13
    Telaran
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    I think Rift has potential to have some of the best PVP in the industry, if they just fix a few things.

    TL;DR:
    Spoiler!



    1. Endgame Currency (random charges and weeklies)
      1. Calling the currency "PVE marks" is just inflammatory and increases the player divide between PVP'ers and PVE'ers. It's endgame currency. Period. So-called PVP players should probably get over this, because it is not the sole cause of the state of PVP.
      2. PVE players are forced to play PVP just to hit their weekly currency cap, this forces unwilling players into PVP. Most of these players view PVP as RNG (50% chance in warfronts, 33% chance in Conquest). They pretty much treat a warfront win as PVE RNG drops. They often quit participating as soon as the match seems unwinnable. They never fully commit to the experience, and often get carried through matches whether pug or pm. More importantly, they don't have FUN.
      3. PVP weeklies pay out more marks than PVE weeklies
      Potential Solutions
      -- Make mutually exclusive weeklies that reward the same number of marks for PVP and PVE. You, as a player, have the option of which path to take to receive those marks. This will create equity between the PVP and PVE weeklies, while allowing players to choose the content they enjoy.
      -- Scatter small amounts of marks throughout the world as fillers, reducing the dependency on PVP. One of the biggest problems I have is that I cannot spend time helping guildies and other players in open world, and still get credit for my weeklies grind.
      -- Create a unified "grind mark" much like the Mark of Notoriety or Commendation of blahblahblah. These marks are awarded via PVP and PVE. The cool thing about this is that 60+ players could even earn these marks via "old world" content and apply them to their endgame currency. More importantly (from a game dev standpoint) it SCALES. Once implemented, the only concern would be objective balance to attain marks.
      -- Remove the weekly currency cap altogether. Controversial, I know. The caps may be there for Hardcore players, but the impact on the toxicity of the game is counterproductive. The cap is like a goal, not a limit. PVE players are goal-oriented (which, ironically, is why many of them hate PVP...they just see a bunch of hotshots jumping around spamming fireballs and infestations without any clear approach to objectives) and they go after those weekly caps as goals. Remove the goal, and you remove the basic drive for a lot of players to enter warfronts beyond blowing their random charges.
    2. Education (derps and "bads")
      1. Players often have no idea what they are doing, or think they know but don't. How many times have you seen a player eagerly grab a sink and run to their own team's power core?
      2. Teams should not be expected to spend the first part of a match educating their team on how to do the basics. Communication should be about overall strategy for the match. This is where premades have a HUGE advantage.
      Potential Solutions
      -- Trion should enforce training quests that cover all of the basics prior to a player even being able to join a specific warfront. I could imagine something like a set of warfront Chronicles that simply have you run a objectives and face some baddies along the way while learning the point systems within each warfront. Read: Port Scion.
      -- I know, I know, "players should just read the descriptions". Many don't, and those that do, forget when in the thick of it. Training videos, instead of out of context written descriptions would help. There just needs to be something in place INSIDE THE GAME (no, YouTube does not count) to educate players. I, honestly, have never played any game that was so Google and YouTube dependent as Rift for basic player education.
      -- FPS titles often do a great job of educating players before throwing them in the middle of a gunfight. Maybe Rift could learn from that.
    3. Role balance -- HEALERS
      1. Finding a healer in a warfront is like finding a sober chick in a bar. There are probably a few there, but they are either hiding from the smoker (pyro) trying to hit on them or playing wingman (pocket healer) to their girlfriend who is trying to hit on anything that looks available.
      2. Healers have been nerfed to the point of having to fight a pandemic with a bandaid, 2 Q-tips and some of their mama's spit. But that wasn't enough, the geniuses behind class balance allowed a diseased-ridden, crackwhore of a warrior to further tax healers.
      3. A single healer often determines the outcome of warfronts.
      Potential Solutions
      -- Create role-based queuing without the option to change those roles. This would probably be the most despised solution. This might become the nightmare of the long wait times that we see for NTEs, or it could just encourage more healers in PVP as a by-product of those long wait times.
      -- Enforce a squad-based setup, much like tactical FPS. Each squad (party) requires a healer and this can be determined in-match, on the fly. This is extremely limiting, but it might have a very interesting outcome.
      -- Remove healing other players from PVP altogether. With the healing nerf, even self heals are extremely limited. Not allowing players to queue as healers would just eliminate that mental block of "they have more healers than we do", and it would also eliminate the single-player-pocket-healed domination that can often decimate an entire team. This type of system works well in FPS where players self-heal.
    4. Matchmaking
      1. Teams are often horribly unbalanced, and this is usually blamed on premades. But there are lots of other factors (most mentioned above): healing imbalance, education imbalance, player participation.
      2. Elo (sigh).

        -- The Elo system does not work for pugs or teams that change frequently, especially when there are game-changing variables (like the addition of a healer).
        -- Players can be carried to a high Elo. Individual contribution is completely ignored, therefore the whole notion of "it will balance out" is fallacious.
        -- It's simply a lazy, and broken, way to rate players for matchmaking.
      3. Premades should not be allowed in standard pugs, unless other teams can see IN ADVANCE that they are competing against a premade. Period. Even 2-player premades can be major factors in pugs. A good player with a pocket healer (and good communication) can absolutely dominate any warfront by mowing down groups of opposing players.
      Potential Solutions
      -- Player rating needs to be based upon individual contribution.
      1. If my team wins, but I did not complete any objectives and did not contribute dps/heals or CC/support (tough to track), then my rating should not rise as much as my equally-rated teammate, if at all.
      2. If my team loses, and I am the highest contributor in kill, dmg, objectives, etc, then my rating should (in most cases) actually RISE, not fall. This is especially true if I also top the contribution of members of the winning team.
      3. If I'm not mistaken, Favor is rewarded based upon the many things that contribute to winning a match. Why seek an outside rating when there is one inherently built into the game already?
      4. Lifetime contribution should be factored in. A 3-year PVP veteran should NEVER have the same rating as a player who's been grinding Prestige for the past 3 months. That level of experience needs to be factored in somehow.
      -- Match premades against other premades.
      -- Give players the option to not be put into matches where premades are present. This may destroy premades, but the current system of allowing them to farm other players is potentially more devastating.

    I do not think PVP is beyond repair, but I also don't think that Trion and the players are ready for the changes required to fix it.

    Raiders and top guilds are used to farming PVP, making it horrible for the casual players.

    Self-proclaimed PVP'ers are too busy pointing fingers and blanket disparaging PVE'ers to actually even contribute significantly to most matches. PVP'ers are usually the first players to say they quit, and do nothing for the rest of the match because they're stuck on a team full of "bads".

    This all just contributes to a highly toxic environment that is not enjoyable for many players.

  14. #14
    Champion of Telara Methadras's Avatar
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    Just to add to your above statement. Players shouldn't be dropped into wf's that are already scored so horribly bad that they incur a lose simply by being dropped into one. I've had a number of occasions when I pop into a scion, black garden, or gas station where my side is losing so badly that it is statistically impossible for them from a points/time point of view to win, so now I have to eat a lose and affect my ELO because of it. I don't see that as being particularly fair or even correct since the way ELO is implemented here is simply win/loss. That above all else needs to be made a massive priority to fix.
    Last edited by Methadras; 05-06-2015 at 06:01 PM.

  15. #15
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methadras View Post
    Just to add to your above statement. Players should be dropped into wf's that are already scored so horribly bad that they incur a lose simply by being dropped into one. I've had a number of occasions when I pop into a scion, black garden, or gas station where my side is losing so badly that it is statistically impossible for them from a points/time point of view to win, so now I have to eat a lose and affect my ELO because of it. I don't see that as being particularly fair or even correct since the way ELO is implemented here is imply win/loss. That above all else needs to be made a massive priority to fix.
    Yes, very good point. Drop-in wins/losses should not effect Elo at all. I think that time spent in-match should be a coefficient to your rating increase/decrease.

    Quitting within a certain amount of time should not affect Elo either. It's really a pain to drop into an unwinnable match turned kill farm (Whitefall/Karthan when the other team has scored 2, is holding 1, and spawn camping the losing team) and you have to sit through the whole thing because Trion's way of improving PVP is to force players to stand around and move just enough to not be pegged as AFK versus quitting and moving on.

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