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Thread: How to Increase Warfront Participation and Reduce Player Frustration

  1. #1
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    Default How to Increase Warfront Participation and Reduce Player Frustration

    Reposting this as I believe it really would make a great deal of positive difference in the current warfronts.

    The warfronts are currently a mix of those who want to compete (be it winning the match, going on killing sprees, or just topping the scoreboard) and those who don't want to be there but feel pressured (either by themselves or others) to get the marks rewarded by the Weekly PvP Quests and the Daily Warfront Charges. It has definitely resulted in resentment from PvP players towards those pvE players who show up to be carried.

    There is the expectation among many that you can AFK your way to success in warfronts. And as much as that claim ruffles my feathers, there is a large amount of people that enter warfronts hoping to AFK to a victory, some of whom quit the warfront to try their luck again later. What does the 15 minute Ascended Disgrace debuff matter to someone who doesn't want to play PvP in the first place?

    This 'AFK to success' attitude is solely the responsibility of Trion. Trion has set the reward system in such a way that no individual achievements need be met in order to reap the rewards. One can not AFK their way through NTEs without being quickly identified and booted from the team. To successfully accomplish NTEs, one must put forth a significant amount of effort, research, and learning in order to complete the content. However, in warfronts there is simply no way to easily identify or remove the AFKers. Nor is there any need for one to do more than stealth in a corner and occasionally hit a button in order to reap the rewards of a win brought to them by the efforts of their team mates.

    This needs to change. And here are some of the changes that should happen:

    1) Reward effort. Create a variety of Repeatable PvP Quests that would reward players based on some benchmarks achieved in certain warfronts. For instance:

    Warfront Specific

    * Codex:
    - achieve a total of 5 million damage and/or healing
    - capture/defend a total of 10 flags
    - achieve 10 killing blows and/or saves

    * Whitefall:
    - achieve a total of 10 million damage and/or healing
    - capture/steal a total of 5 stones
    - achieve 15 killing blows and/or saves

    * etc

    General (overlaps with warfront specific quests)

    *Killing Machine:
    - achieve a total of 25 million damage
    - achieve a total of 50 killing blows

    *Exalted Savior:
    - achieve a total of 25 million in total healing
    - achieve a total of 25 saves

    *Battlefield Manipulator:
    - place enemy ascended under a crowd control effect for a total of 200 times

    *Specialist:
    - capture/defend an objective 100 times

    These quests would reward the player:
    - 240000 experience points
    - 2.5 platinum
    - 100 Abyssal Crusader Marks
    - 20 Fragments of Horror
    - 32 Fragments of Madness

    Rewarding individual accomplishments will encourage players to keep attacking the enemy, keep healing allies, and keep going for the objectives, even when the loss appears inevitable. AFKing would no longer be a productive activity, and those who engage in this behaviour would either adapt to the new system and learn to contribute or stop queueing. Either way, the result would be better matches, given that according to Ocho the bulk of the lopsided matches are caused by AFKers/quitters.

    Why Repeatable? Firstly, this is to allow people to finish the quests on their own time - reducing the pressure and allowing the player to enjoy himself, secure in the knowledge that he is progressing without having to stress over a deadline. Also, it would allow the more accomplished PvPers to be rewarded at a moderately faster pace (especially given the lack of PvP end-game).



    2) Change the Daily Warfront Charge:

    The Daily Warfront Charge as it currently is allows players to AFK/quit until they succeed by luck. This is an enormous design flaw that has resulted in a plague of indifferent participants in the warfronts, and subsequently deeply frustrated PvP veterans that are forced to carry these leeches.

    The Daily Warfront Charge should be changed to reward the player if the player can:
    - achieve over 1 million damage and/or healing and at least 5 killing blows and/or saves in a single warfront. (Edit: or perhaps just a cumulative total of 1 million damage and 5 KBs if Trion is not willing to set the bar too high for achieving daily warfront charges

    This would require all players to put in some serious effort to achieve the daily, just as is the case for NTE dailies.



    3) Change the Weeklies:

    *Guns for Hire:
    - Complete a total of 7 different PvP Repeatable Quests

    *Carnage: Ascended
    (remains as-is)Edit: or perhaps change this to meeting a certain quota of favour gained; as favour is largely a product of individual contribution to the match - correct me if I am wrong on this - players would have to actually participate to maximize their favour gains. Of course, favour vials would give some people a leg up, but that bonus would still rely on participation, which is an improvement over the current AFK-friendly state of the Weekly. Also, potential cash cow for Trion, woot!


    Guns for Hire and Carnage: Ascended currently shares the flaw of the current Daily Warfront Charges: it allows players to AFK their way to success. These changes would complement the introduction of repeatable quests and further reinforce the need for participants in warfronts to work on their individual contributions towards the win.
    Last edited by Nefelia; 05-05-2015 at 06:22 AM.

  2. #2
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    I agree that the model needs to change, too many are just looking for easy victories rather than having to work for rewards. In a warfront yesterday a "team mate" decided to instruct everyone to let the other team win as it was hopeless - the scores were only 68-90 at the Black Garden

    However I disagree with the requirement to do x amount of damage or heals for two reasons, firstly a fresh 65 could be working his tiny little heart out and struggle to reach the target while at the same time a raid geared player could turn up and get that target with relative ease. Second reason is that aoe specs and overhealing builds would have a huge advantage over single target burst and shielding specs.

    In my opinion it would be better to replace "do x amount of damage" to "spend x amount of time near an objective"

    p.s. when you say repeatable quest, are you suggesting that the currency cap should not apply?

  3. #3
    Soulwalker
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    Default state of pvp

    the only way you will see pvp getting better, is for rift to go back to how it was. gear separation is the key in a mmorpg for decent pvp. when you make the gear all of one set, with a mark reward system in order to upgrade the gear. you force non pvpers to join just for a chance to complete the dailies. while forcing non pvers to do raids.
    i cancelled my account, because as things stand for those of us that just pvp the game is no longer worth while.

  4. #4
    Champion of Telara Ongar's Avatar
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    What I would like to see for PvP:

    - Let us buy the basic PvP gear variants at the shop for favor.
    I think thats better than relying on RNG.

    - The reward box should have a small chance of dropping sometimes way more Plat,
    than your usual 1.44, like up to 50.

    - The reward box should have a small chance of dropping upgrade parts.

    And as a long time plan for PvP, replace the Conquest maps with new ones that offer
    epic 3 faction pvp with castles to defend and siege weapons to attack.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaltai View Post
    I agree that the model needs to change, too many are just looking for easy victories rather than having to work for rewards. In a warfront yesterday a "team mate" decided to instruct everyone to let the other team win as it was hopeless - the scores were only 68-90 at the Black Garden
    I've seen that from time to time. My standard response is "it's too early to tell". There is no solution for those of such weak wills. I made my suggestions with more serious blow-outs in mind: those that are still within the realm of recovery if only people make the effort for it. For the unsalvagable games, the repeatable quests would at least give players on the losing side something productive to do, rather than have them rage-quit or seethe in spawn for the rest of the match.

    However I disagree with the requirement to do x amount of damage or heals for two reasons, firstly a fresh 65 could be working his tiny little heart out and struggle to reach the target while at the same time a raid geared player could turn up and get that target with relative ease.
    As with all end-game content, the fresh lvl 65 player would need to skill up and gear up.

    Is a fresh lvl 65 player able to hop directly into the NTEs to get their daily charges done? No. They must learn to play their souls properly, learn the content, and gear up. And yet a fresh lvl 65 player can join a warfront and AFK to achieve his charge. This is terrible symmetry.

    In one of my edits I specifically adressed the issue by making it possible for a fresh 65 player to complete a daily charge by getting the 1 million damage and 5 KBs over more than one warfront match. The player would still have to earn it, and that is a great deal better than the current situation.

    And yes, better geared players would be able to achive their daily charges, weeklies, and repeatables faster... just as they do with PvE.

    Second reason is that aoe specs and overhealing builds would have a huge advantage over single target burst and shielding specs.
    AoE specs don't get many KBs and Saves.

    As for shielding: if Rift Meter can keep track of shielding and consider it healing, so can Trion. Making shielding visible as 'healing' on the scoreboard is a change that is long overdue.

    In my opinion it would be better to replace "do x amount of damage" to "spend x amount of time near an objective"
    ...so that people can AFK within 30 meters of the quietest objective?

    p.s. when you say repeatable quest, are you suggesting that the currency cap should not apply?
    Currency caps would still exist.

    Those seeking to maximize gains would still be doing their NTE charges on top of warfront charges and crossing over to any content that has a better reward:time ratio. I purposefully made the rewards for the repeatable quests less attractive than the NTE/WF daily charges and Weekly Quests. The goal is not to replace crossing over to other content for the best rewards. The goal is to provide an alternative (slower) method of progression for those who are unable and/or unwilling to participate in raids/NTEs/whatever to achieve satisfactory progression.

    As it stands, PvPers have the choice to either a) participate in a significant amount of PvE for decent progression, or b) stick to PvP and accept a lack of progression once the PvP Weeklies and daily charges are exhausted. A lot of people have chosen option c) leave Rift for games that will provide a more satisfying/rewarding PvP experience. On top of the other benefits of repeatable quests, they would have the added benefit of providing some smaller carrots to keep the PvPers interested and feeliong rewarded for the effort they put into the warfronts.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by cslap View Post
    the only way you will see pvp getting better, is for rift to go back to how it was. gear separation is the key in a mmorpg for decent pvp. when you make the gear all of one set, with a mark reward system in order to upgrade the gear. you force non pvpers to join just for a chance to complete the dailies. while forcing non pvers to do raids.
    i cancelled my account, because as things stand for those of us that just pvp the game is no longer worth while.
    There is nothing wrong with 'PvE players' joining PvP content. What is wrong is that they are able to AFK the content and still get the rewards. If the rewards were tied to individual contribution those PvE players would be forced to skill-up and p[articipate in order to gain their rewards. At that point, there would be no real difference between PvP player and PvE players withing the warfronts.

    Also, having repeatable quests would give PvP players unable/unwilling to raid an avenue for gear progression.

  7. #7
    Rift Chaser Fopod's Avatar
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    I stopped reading after a couple lines. Why?
    Because if the start of the post is so biased toward this whole PvE versus PvP bull, I'm not expecting the rest of the post to be much more constructive.
    Last edited by Fopod; 05-05-2015 at 09:27 AM.

  8. #8
    Champion minipara's Avatar
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    I'm just there for the marks, if I wanted to PvP and enjoy it I'd play another game i

  9. #9
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    I don't like the idea of side objectives in a rule set where the winning objective is clearly defined. The objective is not to get tons of damage, cap as many as you can, snap all the KBs. The objective is to win.

    This will make me drop their AoE specs for the mere sake of getting the damage, maybe let some flags turn and then hit them. Go off alone to better certainty of a KB. Don't want to sound like sir buzzkill but, frankly, throwing in all this type of stuff, would just have people deviating even more from the sole objective of many maps...which people seem to have enough trouble grasping. All that stuff you listed is stuff that will happen, but to make it a real objective is just going to distract from any semblance of a quality played our Warfront. Last thing you need is someone playing little side missions while the team is trying to do the ultimate mission.

    Increase WF participation and reduce player frustration? Make them enjoyable. It sounds simple but, unfortunately it's not. But there is a reason why people still play Q3dm6 after 20 years with not a single reward handed out yet.

    It's fun, right down to the core. Warfronts need to work on being fun right down to the core. When my guild WW1sted the Eq2 RoK expansion, and was the only guild to down the hardest boss the night before it was nerfed...we literally forgot for about 10 min that we had a chest with loot. It's because it was fun to the very core to do what we did. We all cared less about any reward, we all had a blast gaming that night to the fullest. I just see an acceptance of sub-par and constant requests to make something smell bad good. You can only use spray on cologne so much before you really just need to shower.
    New round up of some high rank matches
    Chun-Li*E.Honda*Evil Ryu
    Abel*Ibuki*Dhalsim
    Gouken*Zangief*Ryu

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violacea View Post
    ...But there is a reason why people still play Q3dm6 after 20 years with not a single reward handed out yet.
    This ^ its not just about tangible rewards, a lot of pvp is about the thrill of comparing your skill to other players, being able to prove something to yourself, and having fun with the communities that form out of it.

    There's a big reason why pvp games often seem to have stronger lasting value than many pve and solo player games (just look at mobas now)- it's because satisfaction in pve games hinges more strongly on being able to constantly feed those players more and more content and bigger and better rewards. And once you've exhausted that gameplay they often have limited replay value (even if you keep adding higher stat rewards its still limited by the enjoyment the player gets out of the experience)

    But PvP offers new and fresh experiences all the time, simply because the players you face (if given adequate tools and a relatively balanced playing field) are complex and adaptable. Even on a single map the game can be played many times in countless ways (ok not totally countless, new viable classes/abilities/maps still help things feel fresh but its easier to maintain - i mean look at the replayability of summoner's rift in LoL, players only even have a few abilities each). This is why maintaining the pvp crowd in mmos is so important- they offer a long term backbone to the game's community.

    And gear rewards? Adding more stat boosting rewards often gets in the way of that. The more gear you add the more gameplay turns towards a content focus- players can't fight each other on equal skill levels and so less is proven between them until they get to that level. If that Grind is alongside fresh content it can feel ok, but if not it wears the player out (planar attunement, pvp gear, essences, multiple currencies, etc..) isolates new and returning players even more than their ability to learn and play the game usually does anyways. Worse if you have to go outside your preferred gameplay area to obtain that gear.

    Pvp rewards can be a good thing, but imo they should primarily be aesthetic - titles, costume, etc.. so people can feel they earn something without distorting the contest (think of hats in TF2).

    just my 2c
    Last edited by Inixia; 05-05-2015 at 01:36 PM.

  11. #11
    Prophet of Telara Meowy's Avatar
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    My 'gear progression' in PvP stopped at t1 gear as anything upgraded or t2 will just make me bolster down.

    I play WFs not for any weekly, any daily, any rewards other than having fun playing it either solo que or with my friends.

    ----

    Tbh I don't know how to really stop afkers and quitters aside from majority vote kick but that can be abused as well.
    Serale@Faeblight

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meowy View Post
    My 'gear progression' in PvP stopped at t1 gear as anything upgraded or t2 will just make me bolster down.

    I play WFs not for any weekly, any daily, any rewards other than having fun playing it either solo que or with my friends.

    ----

    Tbh I don't know how to really stop afkers and quitters aside from majority vote kick but that can be abused as well.
    Vote kick also suffers from the fact tham most people are too busy PvPing to actually check up on their team mates.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violacea View Post
    I don't like the idea of side objectives in a rule set where the winning objective is clearly defined. The objective is not to get tons of damage, cap as many as you can, snap all the KBs. The objective is to win.

    This will make me drop their AoE specs for the mere sake of getting the damage, maybe let some flags turn and then hit them. Go off alone to better certainty of a KB. Don't want to sound like sir buzzkill but, frankly, throwing in all this type of stuff, would just have people deviating even more from the sole objective of many maps...which people seem to have enough trouble grasping. All that stuff you listed is stuff that will happen, but to make it a real objective is just going to distract from any semblance of a quality played our Warfront. Last thing you need is someone playing little side missions while the team is trying to do the ultimate mission.
    Might sound strange but the repeatables could be hidden. The player does not know which repeatable they are on, at some point it would be completed and a quest notification/loot bag could pop. Upon collection the player is given another hidden repeatable randomly chosen. This way might encourage participation.

    As for making the contests enjoyable? I guess people feel that if specs and matchmaking were balanced and working, and the reward system did not encourage afk'ing etc etc etc Then the current WF set would be way more fun. Perhaps even fun enough.

  14. #14
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    I think the introduction of Carnage in Warfronts was an open invitation to AFK.

    In my view a simple 5+5 of those warfronts not in Guns would suffice. It would make it ultimately much harder for the AFKs to get wins and those who persist will be identified by other players. Also report them to their guilds for lack of sportsmanship. If they are in a raiding guild then their guild leader will know who the slackers are and take action otherwise they get a bad reputation.

    Just my 2p worth.

  15. #15
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    I think op had some good suggestions. If just showing up can get you tokens, then it's an open invitation to do zero. Tie rewards to participation instead of presence and I think we will have people in the forums arguing over missing out on objectives. Imagine that, people playing for the right reasons, scary huh....
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