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Thread: Idea for devs to consider.

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    Ascendant Flashmemory's Avatar
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    Default Idea for devs to consider.

    I had an idea I would like to share with some of the devs and I think I found a really easy fix to an on going problem.

    We have a number of weeklies that tie us to pvp and more specifically to a number of warfronts. This funneling into designated warfronts has both a very positive and a very negative effect. The positive is obviously the matchmaking has a larger pool of players, so it should match players better (specifically during high pop times.) However, the negative is when it does match players it usually puts the same players vs. similar players regardless of great disparity in wins/losses. That is the broken part of it. You can have 10 losses because the Elo changes are not great on losses toward the same group in majority of matches and you can get stuck in that cycle unless there is some way for you to break the cycle.

    The system attempts to do this but winning 1/10 to lose 10/1 is too heavy for many of to stomach if we happen to be directly queue on cycles with that premades with perfect Elo that picks some of us who solo queue to match them.

    There are ways for you to actually get around this somewhat. One way is to friends list the potential premades and players that are grouped or known to have groups and avoid them like the plague. Queue outside their time stamp and for specific warfronts they are not in. However, this is working against the weekly guns quest and it is tedious to do. What about some other solutions where we can find some sort of middle ground for all players?

    I once proposed a rather technical solution which was to design specific maps with 3 groups and 4 groups for premades and solo queue to coexist. Sort of like what conquest is but on a smaller level. The problem is, it can be a RNG process for wins and losses and in long run a more difficult process for everyone. The train wreck matches premades are delivering would be less successful. It will alleviate balance issues from other developers as well. But this seems far fetched at this point and may actually be problematic for all.

    So I got to thinking and reading players comments and there is possibly an easier and less technical approach to consider which shouldn't cause any problems. This was brought up by a few players I have talked to so I don't take full credit by the way.The beauty of this is you can work with exactly what you have now.


    The solution is to remove group queue button from a few warfronts in the gui and limit premades to a few warfronts. Ideally what you want is to force these players to become more carriers so no individual player has to suffer the same loss cycles alone,.

    You would want these players to have a need to carry. Obviously, there has to be a need to queue for those specific warfront solo and it should outweigh the want to play with friends all the time.

    However, since you want it to be a middle ground issue you may have to add more guns for hire maps to the quest and limit the wins to 2 or 1 for specific ones. So basically we have a funnel but it is slightly larger. Some guns maps are designed for premades, some of the maps are specific for solo. And all it takes is a disable of the group queue button for those maps.

    Now remember these maps are ideally not ones that many should like to play because the idea is to actually get those who have a safety net out of grouping up in order so they can share in the burden of carrying potatoes.

    Here is an example where even you can give PM an edge since you have domination map.

    Black Garden Normal Queue
    Black Garden Domination Queue Group Queue
    Runemaster Normal Queue
    Runemaster Domination Queue Group Queue

    There is only one big problem with this system.
    And it is, what about random queue?
    That is something that the devs would have to think what is best for the player. I find that personally for me most games I get into are usually an autoloss. I have been lucky 1 or 2 times this week but many times during random queue I am thrown into a cycle of losses.

    How about your random group queue behave like the rank black garden and take that design and place it with the warfronts group queue only? So the Random group queue will shove premades into those specific group warfronts that are tagged like rank black garden?

    Which brings me to another point? Is rank black garden actually influencing your Elo and win/loss percentage. If so that can be exploited and should be disabled.
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 05-05-2015 at 12:28 AM.

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    Ascendant Flashmemory's Avatar
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    Edit Karthan Ridge not Runemasters.

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    Prophet of Telara
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    I queue solo random and get put against groups so I would think that maybe there is something broken there. I know the system is suppose to place you in some matches with groups but no where close to how frequent it is now. Random Solo is either broken or it is a deeper problem.

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    Ascendant Xclvsive's Avatar
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    Another nerf premades thread *sighs* this is getting really old, let me ask you a question. Why should premades be penalized to the point where they can't play their favourite maps?

    They shouldn't. Just because the matchmaking is garbage doesent mean trion needs to accommodate to the part of the playerbase that is bad at the game, have no social skills or friends. I know solo players in this game that don't complain about these sort of things because they are good players.

    imho they need to add the premade marker in wfs so then solo players can stahp crying about being crushed by premades when ever they lose. You will also be surprised how many pms you see that are horrible and you never even knew they were a pm
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    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Planetx View Post
    I queue solo random and get put against groups so I would think that maybe there is something broken there. I know the system is suppose to place you in some matches with groups but no where close to how frequent it is now. Random Solo is either broken or it is a deeper problem.
    there are a lot more groups doing warfronts these days.

    many of them rely on pugs to carry them against the better groups they are matched against.
    some of them will even deny that they are a premade, even though they queued as a group of four or five.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

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    Champion Fallse's Avatar
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    Default For the umpteenth time

    There are a handful of "good" premades that can carry a map all alone with nothing but afk potatoes on their team. This is an extreme outlier, and only possible on some maps.

    Most premades are just a bunch of friends or guildies q'ing for some weeklies or PVP or whatever and are generally NOT min maxing NOT optimizing the group etc ... obviously they have a slight edge as they are likely in VOIP but even that is not always the case.

    Then ofc there are the PM's that are horribad.

    The real issue is the low IQ and lack of desire to contribute of the average player in PVP, you see a dom map - 3 rogues all playing MM, you see a Carry the XXX map nobody outside my PM goes heals, you see 1/2 the team afk if you loose the first clash.

    Just yesterday I was in a PM with a few of the people in this thread / forum we came into a loosing GS and after a slug fest In the middle that seemed like 5v15 we rolled the other side and won the game like 1k - 990 or something to that effect.

    I think players on both sides would say it was a great wf and fun win loose or draw.

    The issue in PVP is not PM's .. that's like saying the issue with a dungeon is that I cant solo it, the issue in PVP is the huge % of people that don't want to be there and therefore do not contribute.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallse View Post
    There are a handful of "good" premades that can carry a map all alone with nothing but afk potatoes on their team. This is an extreme outlier, and only possible on some maps.

    Most premades are just a bunch of friends or guildies q'ing for some weeklies or PVP or whatever and are generally NOT min maxing NOT optimizing the group etc ... obviously they have a slight edge as they are likely in VOIP but even that is not always the case.

    Then ofc there are the PM's that are horribad.

    The real issue is the low IQ and lack of desire to contribute of the average player in PVP, you see a dom map - 3 rogues all playing MM, you see a Carry the XXX map nobody outside my PM goes heals, you see 1/2 the team afk if you loose the first clash.

    Just yesterday I was in a PM with a few of the people in this thread / forum we came into a loosing GS and after a slug fest In the middle that seemed like 5v15 we rolled the other side and won the game like 1k - 990 or something to that effect.

    I think players on both sides would say it was a great wf and fun win loose or draw.

    The issue in PVP is not PM's .. that's like saying the issue with a dungeon is that I cant solo it, the issue in PVP is the huge % of people that don't want to be there and therefore do not contribute.
    This would be true if the system didn't put groups together on the same team vs. one good player and a bunch of potatoes which does happen. Look at Grim Gamings youtube video. Groups barely ever have to carry potatoes. The system is so messed up it stacks premades on same teams still.
    Last edited by Planetx; 05-05-2015 at 02:20 PM.

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    had a weird BG matchup today, with 10 seconds left before the start of the mach, my side was almost full of pugs, and the other only had 3 players. Match starts, they fill up, we get creamed. out played, out geared, out healed. I think we had one kill. I thought my side would have had a slight advantage to get the fang at the start, but it didn't work out that way.
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    Ascendant Flashmemory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xclusivee View Post
    Another nerf premades thread *sighs* this is getting really old, let me ask you a question. Why should premades be penalized to the point where they can't play their favourite maps?

    They shouldn't. Just because the matchmaking is garbage doesent mean trion needs to accommodate to the part of the playerbase that is bad at the game, have no social skills or friends. I know solo players in this game that don't complain about these sort of things because they are good players.

    imho they need to add the premade marker in wfs so then solo players can stahp crying about being crushed by premades when ever they lose. You will also be surprised how many pms you see that are horrible and you never even knew they were a pm
    You probably are clueless and don't know the situation that is being created for some players so I won't bother to answer your question. Limiting premades is always a good thing especially when they are grossly overfed and this isn't really limiting them but forcing them to see the players they created by farming them over and over again. Premades is the #1 reason we have afkers, leavers and demoralized player base. Not only that but if something like this would occur it will be much easier for the system to group groups vs. each other allowing the premades to at least have some semblance of competition.

    There are players who pvp for marks but mostly everyone I know that raids is a raid logger or eventually stops pvping once they can get enough marks.

    This is also the last raid that people will probably consider doing for this expansion so they all don't really care about marks too much just being able to raid the content. T3 usually gets completed by a handful of guilds.
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 05-05-2015 at 03:15 PM.

  10. #10
    Prophet of Telara Meowy's Avatar
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    Just give two separate warfront ques: solo and group.

    Done.
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    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meowy View Post
    Just give two separate warfront ques: solo and group.

    Done.
    riiight.

    as if Rift hasn't had enough pvpers leave the game already.
    now you want to go and start a new exodus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  12. #12
    Champion Fallse's Avatar
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    Default Lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Flashmemory View Post
    You probably are clueless and don't know the situation that is being created for some players so I won't bother to answer your question. Limiting premades is always a good thing especially when they are grossly overfed and this isn't really limiting them but forcing them to see the players they created by farming them over and over again. Premades is the #1 reason we have afkers, leavers and demoralized player base. Not only that but if something like this would occur it will be much easier for the system to group groups vs. each other allowing the premades to at least have some semblance of competition.

    There are players who pvp for marks but mostly everyone I know that raids is a raid logger or eventually stops pvping once they can get enough marks.

    This is also the last raid that people will probably consider doing for this expansion so they all don't really care about marks too much just being able to raid the content. T3 usually gets completed by a handful of guilds.
    You clearly do not PVP ... X is one of the highest dps/kb players & a good heals across multiple classes/toons in Rift PVP ... that is the problem with these forums ... folks that really do know nothing come on here and disparage the opinion of those of us that do know exactly what we are talking about.

  13. #13
    Prophet of Telara Meowy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    riiight.

    as if Rift hasn't had enough pvpers leave the game already.
    now you want to go and start a new exodus.
    Oh I never said my idea wasn't stupid but it seems that is what the QQers want, to separate solo quers with PMs so why not give it to them to see for themselves. Can't see it a horrible idea until you experience it in action.

    I both solo que and run with a group of friends. I don't really care if I am matched against a PM or not. If I am matched against a tough team, I find it challenging and I love challenges.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Planetx View Post
    This would be true if the system didn't put groups together on the same team vs. one good player and a bunch of potatoes which does happen. Look at Grim Gamings youtube video. Groups barely ever have to carry potatoes. The system is so messed up it stacks premades on same teams still.
    This. Yesterday, Cq already at over 1k for Oath , big fat zero for Dom and NF. I read in Crossevents Rgi is forming post made. I wait and suddenly instead of just steady losing, we are subjected to massively increased losing. Seems his postmade got stacked with the premade.

    In what universe does this kind of balancing work?

    And why on earth should i spend my time in fruitlessly horribly unbalanced play?

    I enter and in most cases I am on the losing side. From what I read except for the premades this is just another day in paradise.

  15. #15
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallse View Post
    You clearly do not PVP ... X is one of the highest dps/kb players & a good heals across multiple classes/toons in Rift PVP ... that is the problem with these forums ... folks that really do know nothing come on here and disparage the opinion of those of us that do know exactly what we are talking about.
    The system is choosing players and putting them against premades. I played on his team earlier and we lost.

    You probably don't realize that our team was mostly 60K-70K HP dps vs. 76k-82K+ hp dps premade. When I go in warfront I usually have 80K+ HP in dps spec and use parser all the time.

    We had players who could not even break 1k dps and their team was doing over 2.5k dps with 2 warriors each. Two warriors were beating out 6 of our dps combined. And they had more healing than us.. one healer to 3 healers. But nothing is wrong? Right?
    Last edited by Planetx; 05-07-2015 at 03:07 AM.

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