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Thread: Purifier vs. Sentinel (in pvp)

  1. #1
    Shield of Telara Talzoor's Avatar
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    Default Purifier vs. Sentinel (in pvp)

    The title of this thread is misleading as I do not believe the two souls should be compared. But as of recently, I have come under fire by an individual, who I won’t name. As he seems to miss the functionality of both souls in a pvp setting. One does not supersede the other. They both excel in their own areas of specialty.

    Since i’m recovering from a cold and I can’t sleep. I thought I’d type out an more in-depth analysis of the two souls to show the distinct differences in their game play. This is fun for me as I like discovering possible synergistic abilities between souls/classes (on all games no just this one).

    Under Fire:

    The main reason I came under fire was because I dared to suggest that the Purifier soul acts like a support role in pvp activities.

    “[Purifier has] a lack of burst hp recovery. I still consider it a support soul and best when paired with a burst healer.”

    Health point “recovery” being the key inflection in that statement. I stand by my claim that the Purifier soul has a lack of burst hp recovery in comparison to Sentinel and equivalent burst healing souls. I also stand by my analysis that I consider it along the lines of support soul (to which I will explain).

    First what constitutes “burst hit point recovery” in that statement? Well, it refers to the application of high value heals dealt to a target, over a relatively short period of time.

    Now I said a “lack” of burst hp recovery, one could argue that I was talking about the actual value of the recovery heal itself. Or one could ask for further explanation and realize that I was referring to the amount of hp recovery heal spells Purifier has for use in its arsenal.

    The value of the heal spells themselves will vary from healer to healer as we all have different stats. Such as anyone could take a pointless screen shot of a edge case where Purifier reaches its full heal potential, which we all know is a limited picture of the full story.

    That is why I was referring to the actual number of burst recovery (healing spells) each soul gets from its soul tree (upon full 61 training).

    So let’s compare abilities and see who has who has more “burst hp recovery” by looking at the actual abilities themselves.

    We shall start with Purifier:

    First it should be noted that I only included the spells that attribute to health regeneration. So you'll notice a lot of the shielding abilities are missing here but that is because this is a comparison of "burst health point recovery."

    Most of these abilities can have their effects boosted with the application of the following active abilities: Fiery Will (increases healing by 25% and absorb by 50% for 15s). Flashover (forces the next healing or absorption spell to critically hit). Feeding the Flame (an applied symbol buff increases healing received by fire abilities by 10%).

    Flame of life
    Cooldown: 1 minute, 30 seconds
    Restores health equal to 150% of the Cleric's Maximum Health to up to 10 group or raid members over 6s.

    Gathering of Flames
    Cooldown: 1 minute
    Applies Gathering of Flames to up to 10 party or raid members, absorbing damage. Lasts 30s. Restores health if ended prematurely.

    Latent Blaze
    Cast Time: 3 seconds
    Cooldown: 45 seconds
    Restores health if health drops below 30% within 5m.

    Spiritual Conflagration
    4s Channel
    Cooldown: 1 minute
    Restores health over 4s. Applies Spiritual Conflagration each second, absorbing damage.

    Ward of Fire
    Cast Time: 3.0s
    Restores health. Absorbs damage. Lasts 10s.

    Ward of Flame
    3.0s Channel
    Restores health over 3s. Applies a stacking absorb shield effect each second, absorbing up to damage per stack. Lasts 10s. Max 3 stacks.

    Ward of Scorching
    Cast Time: 2.0s
    Restores health. Absorbs damage. Lasts 10s.

    Healing Flare
    Cast Time: Instant
    Restores small amount of health.

    Which gives Purifier 8 total unique hp recovery spells. 5 are PARTIAL hp recovery spells as they supplement their health recovery value for a preemptive shielding (or health loss prevention) bonus.

    Leaving you with a total of 3 individually completely dedicated hp recovery spells for Purifier.

    Now let’s look at Sentinel:

    First it should be noted that most of the abilities can have their effects boosted with the application of the following active abilities: Nyol’s Hope (increases healing on the next 5 ST heals). Light of Redemption (restores health when the Cleric cast an invocation). Healers blessing (causes st heals to restore an additional health). Faith Rewarded (causes healing done below 50% health to restore an additional health). Marked by the light which causes healing spells to restore health up to 2 members near the cleric. Healer’s Haste (which reduces the cast time of the 5 healing spells by 30%). Touch the Light which causes the next healing ability to be casted instantly at reduced cost.

    Most importantly, Renewed Altruism (which resets cooldown on all sentinel abilities).

    Fullness of Life
    Cast Time: Instant
    Cooldown: 1 min
    Restores 100% of the clerics health to a player.

    Vigilance
    Cast Time: Instant
    Cooldown: 2 min
    Restores health if it drops below 20% or receives a killing blow within 60s

    Divine Call
    Cast Time: Instant
    Cooldown: 1 min
    Restores health to 5 party members.

    Healing Communion
    Cast Time: 2.0s
    Restores health to 5 party members.

    Crucial Invocation
    Cast Time: 2.0s
    Restores health.

    Healing Breath
    Cast Time: Instant
    Cooldown: 8s (can be bypassed by word of life).
    Restores health (can be upgrade to heal an additional 2 players).

    Healing invocation
    Cast Time: 2.5s
    Restores health.

    Subtle Invocation
    Cast Time: 2.0s
    Restores health.

    Sentinel has a total of 8 FULL unique hp recovery spells at its disposal. Not to mention 4 of those spells with cool down can be casted again instantly with the attribution of Renewed Altruism and all of the utility spells are also reset and can also be re-applied.

    Leaving you with a total of 8 individually dedicated hp recovery spells for Sentinel. So at the end of this comparison we have.

    3 dedicated "heal only" (LB,FoL,HF) hp recovery spells for Purifier vs. 8 fully dedicated hp recovery spells (plus 4 that can be reset with RA) for Sentinel. Checkmate Sentinel in the dedicated hp recovery arsenal area but what about the meat?

    “[Purifier has] a lack of burst hp recovery.” The application of high value heals dealt to a target, over a relatively short period of time.

    Purifier has 2 powerful instant cast hp recovery spells and 1 large preemptive 3 second cast heal which I included because you can cast it before the match starts. So LB, SC and FoL fits this category. Each with a CD of 45s, 1 min, 1.5 min.

    Whereas Sentinel has (excuse me as I differ to an exurb from a guide I like):
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahov View Post
    2. Nyol's Hope/Healer's Haste: This can be used either preemptively or reactively. It provides a large burst in healing and generally shouldn't be reserved for a specific mechanic. Use at your own discretion.

    3. Fullness of Life: Very high base heal, improved by wearing more endurance gear (which is great for progression). This is about as reactive of a heal as it gets. If the tank dips, pop this to bring them back up.

    4. Touch the Light (in both forms): Reactive heal, generally interchangeable with Fullness of Life.

    5. Vigilance: often the cooldown of last resort.

    With all of these healing/mitigation cooldowns, you also have Renewed Altruism. This resets all of the above cooldowns.
    Granted he used the examples in the guide for dungeons. However I still find them applicable in pvp.

    Anyway, the number is still 4 instant burst-able hp regeneration spells with healing breath added to the above list. 2x with RA and you are looking at a whopping 8 instant burst hit point recovery spells. With HH/NH still in your back pocket for a rainy day. I wont even touch Faith's Reward as the mercy rule comes in to effect.

    The above definitively shows the actual lack of dedicated heals AND burst hit point recovery spells in Purifier arsenal, that is, in comparison.

    Quantity vs. Quality?

    Going forward. My statement was true that Purifier, does indeed, have a lack of burst hp recovery spells in comparison to other souls (namely Sentinel). Why? Because it supplements its hp recovery spells with preemptive (hp loss prevention) efficient shielding. Although it has to be considered, which heals are more valued in pvp, Preemptive or Reactive?

    Or does this comparison really need to be made? Again if your remember my initial proposal was. “I do not believe the souls should be compared.” As they serve different roles in pvp.

    There is preemptive shielding/healing and there is reactive healing. I will explain, how they both synergize with each via my example.

    When I play my Puri in team or premade pvp with a fellow reactive (or dedicated burst recovery) healer. I understand my most efficient play style in that situation. My role is to mitigate the damage/cleanse if possible and give time to the dedicated burst healer to recover the player.

    When we are attacked, I look for who is taking the most damage. The first thing I do is initiate preemptive shielding (health loss) counter measures by dropping an available shielding ward on the focused player. Next I apply cleanse and light (in comparison) regenerative heals to supplement/help stabilize the sudden lost health. This grants my fellow (burst recovery) healer time to intervene and supply the large portion of recovery health. Using a mana efficient spells (without having to waste a large cost spell or a valuable save).

    While that is in action, I am already shielding the next player, preparing him/her for the next wave of incoming regenerative heals.

    It’s no longer an issue of Quantity vs. Quality. It’s a combination of Quality 100% efficient preemptive heals/shield being used in tandem with the Quantity or large numerical value aka the burst regenerative/recovery/reactive heals. Dare I say almost perfect synergy between the two souls.

    Shielding vs. Healing: The realization of a support soul.

    While it’s true that Purifier does both healing and shielding. It clear that it does one better than the other. By looking at the abilities alone, the intended functionality of the soul becomes clear, preemptive shielding/mitigation.

    Whereas Sentinel has comparatively weak arsenal when it comes to actual damage mitigation or preemptive heals. It’s clear, by the functionality of its buffs and utilities, that the soul is more focused on the actual hit point recovery of the player.

    So the roles are clear but which soul supports the other?

    Well it becomes clear when you look at the act of preemptive (hp loss prevention) shielding. The shields alone are only prolong the loss of life. Eventually with enough damage the shield will be destroyed and the health will be taken.

    However, when the health is replaced at a (sufficient rate) it’s no longer a prolonged loss of life. It’s an actual recovery of the hit point lost vs. damage taken.

    Therefore shielding (hp loss prevention) can’t be as useful as pure health regeneration/recovery as it is depended on the latter to maintain survival.

    On the flip-side of that, pure health regeneration does not need shielding to help with the maintenance of survival as they are not interdependent. In that vain, the 61 purifier shielding is relegated to a luxury role or a very strong support role in pvp.

    Now one could argue, with enough effective shielding you wouldn't need to be healed. This is a very valid point, for like, lower level pve for instance.

    However in pm pvp when you are facing against skilled dpsers who assist. That shield, that mitigation, is regulated to a moment of (very) brief reprieve in between the pounding you are going to take. After that moment is up, you aren't praying for shields you are praying for recovery heals to fend of the next wave.

    Conclusion.

    I am absolutely perplexed at the people who compare these two souls as if they serve an equal function. Finding a souls strengths and weakness is a fun part of the game and it's one that I find very interesting! Hence my long post here.

    In the end, as I've stated in my opening paragraph. Between the purifier and sentinel, one soul does not supersede the other. They both excel in their own areas of specialty. I think most of us realize that already and others just need more time to discover it on their own.

    *Please make any replies constructive and non-hostile or I will not reply. As I'm tired of the off topic bickering.*

    Have a good Friday! (while I remain sick in bed) :x
    Last edited by Talzoor; 05-01-2015 at 08:58 AM. Reason: spelling

  2. #2
    Rift Master Nantucket's Avatar
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    The only solution to this great debate is to have a deathmatch with 5 sentinels vs 5 purifiers and see who wins.
    Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes, well, he eats you.

  3. #3
    Rift Master Nantucket's Avatar
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    Mayweather is to purifier as Pacquiao is to sentinel.
    Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes, well, he eats you.

  4. #4
    Shield of Telara Talzoor's Avatar
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    What's weird is, I took a look back into the forum archives and this debate has been going on for a LONG time. Like does one really need to be better than the other? Can't they both be useful in their own way?

  5. #5
    Ascendant Snap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talzoor View Post
    What's weird is, I took a look back into the forum archives and this debate has been going on for a LONG time. Like does one really need to be better than the other? Can't they both be useful in their own way?
    The debate about Reaver being OP been going since the revamp and it's probably gonna be going on so long as it's broken OP.

    Purifier is to healers what Reaver is to DPS, broken as hell.
    You are of the side that is oblivious to the facts and you'll just defend Purifier to the death no matter how broken it can be.

    In any case, it's pointless to make another thread about Purifier since Trion isn't going to do anything about Purifier causing massive balance issue between healers.
    Last edited by Snap; 05-01-2015 at 08:54 AM.
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  6. #6
    Shield of Telara Talzoor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    You are of the side that is oblivious to the facts and you'll just defend Purifier to the death no matter how broken it can be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Talzoor View Post
    In the end, as I've stated in my opening paragraph. Between the purifier and sentinel, one soul does not supersede the other. They both excel in their own areas of specialty. I think most of us realize that already and others just need more time to discover it on their own.
    Please at least read the first few lines or the last few line before posting. It why I put it down twice because I knew someone would jump out and post like this lol. I in no way defend either. I just point out the differences in both and how they work with each other. Please don't start any unnecessary drama here Snap.
    Last edited by Talzoor; 05-01-2015 at 09:06 AM.

  7. #7
    Ascendant Snap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talzoor View Post
    Please at least read the first few lines or the last few line before posting Snap. It why I put it down twice because I knew someone would jump out and post like this lol.
    I did read that and I'll repeat again.

    1. You'll defend Purifier to the death no matter how broken it can be.
    Purifier surpasses Sentinel in everything that matters, period.

    2. You are oblivious to the facts.
    You've shown in another thread (Which probably is the cause of this new thread) that you completely ignore the only thing that matters when healing, effective healing.


    I'll only bother explaining this to you once, after this, I'm not posting again because I already know how it will end with you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Talzoor View Post
    The main reason I came under fire was because I dared to suggest that the Purifier soul acts like a support role in pvp activities.

    “[Purifier has] a lack of burst hp recovery. I still consider it a support soul and best when paired with a burst healer.”
    Your entire post is about burst hp recovery, the thing that doesn't matter in PvP.
    Healing is important DURING the fight and doesn't mean squat AFTER the fight.
    A purifier is much stronger in every single ways at keeping people alive DURING fights.
    Because a Sentinel can top of a player once every enemies are dead faster than a Purifier, it doesn't make Sentinel equivalent to Purifier, not even close.
    It's like saying X DPS is as strong as Y because they do as much damage even if 50% of X player damage is AoE.

    Which is exactly why I'm saying you are being oblivious. You are ignoring everything that matters and only talk about the things that fits you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talzoor View Post
    Therefore shielding (hp loss prevention) can’t be as useful as pure health regeneration/recovery as it is depended on the latter to maintain survival.
    Not only that, but you even go about saying shielding isn't as useful as pure healing which is utterly wrong.
    Shielding is a million time stronger than Pure healing.
    Mostly because it's 100% effective healing.

    But also, it screw up with double dipping mechanics like Arc, Shifting Blades, Massive Blow, Vorpal Strike, Blademark etc. causing those to do 0 damage when the initial hit is fully absorbed. Vorpal Strike is supposed to do 100% of it's damage done over 8 seconds, if the initial hit is fully absorb the DoT will do 0 damage. I may be wrong on this one, do correct me if I am.

    On top of it, it screw up with the enemy. Either by making them believe they don't do any damage or have them attack a low HP target even if it's pointless to do so and they would do better target switching.

    And I probably forgot about multiple other reasons why shielding is better than pure healing.
    Can anyone confirm me if shielding is affect by healing reduction like Reaver's 30% debuffs?

    Anyway, I'm done here. I've had enough of all the terrible arguments of the Zealous Defenders of the Divine Flavor Clerichood and the Tribe of Magic Wielding Warriors.

    Edit: I also forgot the part where Purifier got the overly OP 7% damage reduction buff, which I won't bother explaning why it's OP.
    Last edited by Snap; 05-01-2015 at 09:37 AM.
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  8. #8
    Ascendant Zehne's Avatar
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    ....

    He counted healing invocation and subtle invocation as 'unique' healing abilities

    ...

    He listed Healing communion

    ...

    This explains alot.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zehne View Post
    ....

    He counted healing invocation and subtle invocation as 'unique' healing abilities

    ...

    He listed Healing communion

    ...

    This explains alot.
    Divine Call OP.

  10. #10
    Rift Master Nantucket's Avatar
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    Sent needs a new 61 point ability.

    Please make it a shield so I can refer to Sent as a support soul.
    Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes, well, he eats you.

  11. #11
    Shield of Telara Talzoor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    Your entire post is about burst hp recovery, the thing that doesn't matter in PvP.
    Healing is important DURING the fight and doesn't mean squat AFTER the fight.
    A purifier is much stronger in every single ways at keeping people alive DURING fights.
    No just the start of my post was about burst hp recovery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talzoor View Post
    There is preemptive shielding/healing and there is reactive healing. I will explain, how they both synergize with each via my example.

    When I play my Puri in team or premade pvp with a fellow reactive (or dedicated burst recovery) healer. I understand my most efficient play style in that situation. My role is to mitigate the damage/cleanse if possible and give time to the dedicated burst healer to recover the player.

    When we are attacked, I look for who is taking the most damage. The first thing I do is initiate preemptive shielding (health loss) counter measures by dropping an available shielding ward on the focused player. Next I apply cleanse and light (in comparison) regenerative heals to supplement/help stabilize the sudden lost health. This grants my fellow (burst recovery) healer time to intervene and supply the large portion of recovery health. Using a mana efficient spells (without having to waste a large cost spell or a valuable save).

    While that is in action, I am already shielding the next player, preparing him/her for the next wave of incoming regenerative heals.

    It’s no longer an issue of Quantity vs. Quality. It’s a combination of Quality 100% efficient preemptive heals/shield being used in tandem with the Quantity or large numerical value aka the burst regenerative/recovery/reactive heals. Dare I say almost perfect synergy between the two souls.
    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    Shielding is a million time stronger than Pure healing.
    Mostly because it's 100% effective healing.
    I challenge you to solo heal warfront and a NTE using puri shielding only and no heals. I would like you record it and show the results. Then take the same challenge in warfronts and a NTE using senti heals only (no shields) and compare the results.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    I did read that and I'll repeat again.
    1. You'll defend Purifier to the death no matter how broken it can be.
    Sorry snap I won't engage in this line of conversation based off a faulty assumption. I play both Purifier and Senti. I switch souls depending on the situation.

    If you dislike Purifier I suggest you start a new thread and list all the reasons why you hate Purifier. Don't project your anger at me.

    I tell you it's a unbias look at both souls, I state it in the all of my post to you (I don't know how else to say it) and you constantly refute it. This means you have reverted back to your original frothing rage state which you lapse into. Thank you for your input and I hope when you calm down you can look this over again with discuss using reason and not blind accusations.
    Last edited by Talzoor; 05-01-2015 at 10:40 AM.

  12. #12
    Shield of Telara Talzoor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nantucket View Post
    Sent needs a new 61 point ability.

    Please make it a shield so I can refer to Sent as a support soul.
    Actually you would need to change more than just that one ability to fit my scenario. But you can claim senti as a support now if you want. Just state your reasons why shielding is more important than healing (take the snap challenge posted above) make sure you do Return to Empyrean Core for the NTE I wanna see how that shield only hold up against those mobs vs the heal only.
    Last edited by Talzoor; 05-01-2015 at 10:55 AM.

  13. #13
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Riane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nantucket View Post
    Sent needs a new 61 point ability.

    Please make it a shield so I can refer to Sent as a support soul.
    I actually think it would be pretty cool to have the old school Sentinel 51 point back (as a 61 pt that is.)

    Channels healing energy into the ally and up to 5 additional party or raid members, healing them for #### health over 6 seconds.
    That would be fun!
    Last edited by Riane; 05-01-2015 at 10:32 AM.

  14. #14
    Ascendant Snap's Avatar
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    Why am I not surprised you ignored everything I said and started acting like you were a martyr?
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  15. #15
    Rift Master Nantucket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riane View Post
    I actually think it would be pretty cool to have the old school Sentinel 51 point back (as a 61 pt that is.)
    That sounds like a huge improvement over the current 61. Let's make it happen!

    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    Why am I not surprised you ignored everything I said and started acting like you were a martyr?
    Someone has to speak for the Sents. Defilers have their links and transformation. Purifiers have their shields and good looks. Wardens have their water.... and Sentinels have Talzoor.

    The circle is complete.
    Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes, well, he eats you.

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