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Thread: Solution for joining "too late"?

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple
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    Default Solution for joining "too late"?

    Here is my stats from 12/4/2015 for all games that i joined "too late to make a difference". Situations where you join in 200 to 900 score, all flags taken and being carried to their base, or premade teams already securing the win by controlling most important points and our team afk in the base meanwhile. Simply said the games in which you don't have a chance to reverse the score.

    Total:
    Already Won: 1
    Already Lost: 9

    Only the games after the ELO patch:
    Already Won: 1
    Already Lost: 5

    If i just kept this stats from the previous month the total number would be something like 1-18, because i had around 9 already lost games vs 0 being put in already winning team.
    I intended to keep tracking this for a month or two, but i just can't stand playing this anymore and gave up counting bad things vs good things in the game. Once the bad things start to get bigger than good things the game just give you a headache and zero satisfaction. Including the lag, not optimized engine, never ending farmville and terrible PvP the game simply follows only one direction, which isn't good.

  2. #2
    Shadowlander Faeruna's Avatar
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    Can't really think of a solution for this tbh.

    Maybe can add a factor into the ELO change that multiplies (or adds) to the ELO won or lost in proportion to the time spent in the WF. Though this may encourage slow wins so uh yeah, make it apply only to losses, the longer you were a part of the WF, the more ELO you lose.

    As to how to prevent the "late" joining of matches in the first place? Not reallly sure...
    Last edited by Faeruna; 04-27-2015 at 03:47 AM.

  3. #3
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    I agree that it contributes to some frustration, but rank this pretty low on the overall issues I would assign Dev time to address, especially as there are good sides to it as well. There are quite a few games where the influx of late players totally changes the game, especially in Whitefall, Karthan Ridge (stones, etc). In fact, this one element is the main reason for great comebacks or heartbreaking losses when it appeared a sure win was in hand. These few games end up being some of the ones I remember actually.

    And it also provides an attempted fix for those who enter a game early and are impacted by others leaving, so being left in a match with less people. It also helps with faster queue times.

    What is your suggestion to fix this while taking the positive elements into account?
    Last edited by tdain; 04-27-2015 at 04:47 AM.

  4. #4
    Shadowlander Faeruna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdain View Post
    I agree that it contributes to some frustration, but rank this pretty low on the overall issues I would assign Dev time to address, especially as there are good sides to it as well. There are quite a few games where the influx of late players totally changes the game, especially in Whitefall, Karthan Ridge (stones, etc). In fact, this one element is the main reason for great comebacks or great losses when it appeared a sure win was in hand. These few games end up being some of the ones I remember actually.

    And it also provides an attempted fix for those who enter a game early and are impacted by others leaving, so being left in a match with less people. It also helps with faster queue times.

    What is your suggestion to fix this while taking the positive elements into account?
    Yes, that's exactly why I was unsure a 'fix' would be desireable. Think the best I can think of is simply to mitigate the damage of an unfair loss and leave the 'late join system' as is.

  5. #5
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faeruna View Post
    Can't really think of a solution for this tbh.
    disable new players joining a game once one team passes 50% of the score needed to win.
    lost games will remain lost as pathetic quitters leave, but new players who had nothing to do with the initial loss wont have to suffer through someone elses failure.

    the shortened match timers and increased points gain pretty much make turn arounds impossible, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  6. #6
    Shadowlander Faeruna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    disable new players joining a game once one team passes 50% of the score needed to win.
    lost games will remain lost as pathetic quitters leave, but new players who had nothing to do with the initial loss wont have to suffer through someone elses failure.

    the shortened match timers and increased points gain pretty much make turn arounds impossible, anyway.
    You might be right there, although that would guarantee a loss with a less than full team. In my experience (as anecdotal and possibly irrelevent as it may be) I have had a turn-around or two. These were epic and close and nail biting. Some of the turn-around matches I lost but still, coming within 10 points of winning and losing on the last tick when we had a 380 - 450 point deficit to make up was certainly an awesome way to lose.

    I guess I'm not in favour of your idea though perhaps the idea isn't the problem, perhaps it's the choice of 50%. So maybe a great idea for 80% or 85/90/95% of the win point amount if the difference in score between the two teams is 1.5x or worse.

  7. #7
    Ascendant SprawlnBrawl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    disable new players joining a game once one team passes 50% of the score needed to win.
    lost games will remain lost as pathetic quitters leave, but new players who had nothing to do with the initial loss wont have to suffer through someone elses failure.

    the shortened match timers and increased points gain pretty much make turn arounds impossible, anyway.
    no need to lock the match, just make any players joining (on winning or losing team) get no elo hit and no win/loss. maybe even offer some type of "lost hope" bonus if a team comes back from certain amount down, like an extra reward box or something.
    Last edited by SprawlnBrawl; 04-27-2015 at 05:51 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdain View Post
    What is your suggestion to fix this while taking the positive elements into account?
    At first i thought preventing you to join games that are 50% or more done would fix that, but then the team full with afk players or just newbies into PvP will have even less % chance of winning (not that joining too late to make an impact improves their chances by more than 1-5%).
    But the whole idea (imho) behind good PvP is to start at equal circumstances as much as possible and let personal skills to decide the outcome of the game, and not trying to reduce your impact as much as possible depending on your rank/elo.
    Can't give exact solution only for that problem, because it doesn't come alone, it comes with many other poor aspects, and figuring out solution for this matter, while there are several broken won't bring the car on the road again.

    I think Trion must focus on overall Rift profile first and what the game has become after the new patches released compared to the old times. Things like giving a reason PvP players to subscribe or bringing back those who left the game, probably trying to solve that issue they created while trying to merge pvp and pve contents, working out the overall lag/fps issues with the game. Setting a list of priorities and starting from the biggest then moving to less or less important ones. Because you can't build a tower starting from the top or some random position in the middle.

    I know i'm leading the thread into another direction, but there are bigger problems currently from what it seems an overall picture lately, and if the game wasn't good enough we wouldn't bother spending time in forums but simply proceed to another one.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by moodkiller View Post
    At first i thought preventing you to join games that are 50% or more done would fix that, but then the team full with afk players or just newbies into PvP will have even less % chance of winning (not that joining too late to make an impact improves their chances by more than 1-5%).
    But the whole idea (imho) behind good PvP is to start at equal circumstances as much as possible and let personal skills to decide the outcome of the game, and not trying to reduce your impact as much as possible depending on your rank/elo.
    Can't give exact solution only for that problem, because it doesn't come alone, it comes with many other poor aspects, and figuring out solution for this matter, while there are several broken won't bring the car on the road again.

    I think Trion must focus on overall Rift profile first and what the game has become after the new patches released compared to the old times. Things like giving a reason PvP players to subscribe or bringing back those who left the game, probably trying to solve that issue they created while trying to merge pvp and pve contents, working out the overall lag/fps issues with the game. Setting a list of priorities and starting from the biggest then moving to less or less important ones. Because you can't build a tower starting from the top or some random position in the middle.

    I know i'm leading the thread into another direction, but there are bigger problems currently from what it seems an overall picture lately, and if the game wasn't good enough we wouldn't bother spending time in forums but simply proceed to another one.
    Overall, I agree with your opinion that the really needed fixes come from larger, deeper analysis and vision for PvP. But as we have discussed in another thread, there might just not be the business reasons for Trion to do a major PvP overhaul as it likely isn't a large enough potential source of revenue. So, for now, while I hope this larger vision is prioritized, I tend to think the PvP community should rally behind a few smaller and more easily implemented fixes.

    All that being said, I still enjoy the PvP ever though I know it can be better.

  10. #10
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    Total number of Already Won vs Already Lost games:
    5-24 in favor of the already lost games from last (almost) 2 months. Don't know exactly if i would keep tracking this result to see what will happen in longer term. Haven't played last days, because i can't stand the flaws anymore.

    Improvements coming (or never come) after months waiting in a game that you log in everyday - ain't my taste, really. It needs someone who have more patience.

  11. #11
    Plane Walker
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    Some of these solutions are just horrible. If you get added to a losing team and you stay, it should count as a loss.

    Where the fix has to be made is on the people that port out.

    If you port out/exit out it should work like this:

    1) For the purposes of matchmaking it counts as a win
    2) For the purposes of elo matchmaking it counts as a win

    It has to be visible to them and they have to know the more they do that the more crummy teams they will get on.

    You can't punish those who get added to the end of a match, but you do need to punish those who port out and cause people to be added at the end of a match.

    But also: Team sizes should not be growing in the last 50% of a match. It's just silly.
    Last edited by Rhumble; 04-30-2015 at 05:52 PM.

  12. #12
    Plane Walker regall's Avatar
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    http://www.theguardian.com/technolog...aming-violence

    I'm uncertain why this thread reminded me of this article.

    There's something thrilling about joining a 'losing' match and winning. Perhaps PvP just needs to be thought about differently in it's place within Rift.

  13. #13
    Ascendant Onebutton's Avatar
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    There is a silver lining here. The match will be over soon, so you can get to the next one?
    Are people really caught up in the ranking so much? It will change over the next several months and even out to a better match-making system. For now, let it play out, at least I think.

    I don't mind joining late whether it be winning or losing.. The one good thing is you don't have to endure the lopsidedness for too long.
    OneButton (Half-way now to becoming a two-button player!)
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrodite Rising View Post
    There is a silver lining here. The match will be over soon, so you can get to the next one?
    Are people really caught up in the ranking so much? It will change over the next several months and even out to a better match-making system. For now, let it play out, at least I think.

    I don't mind joining late whether it be winning or losing.. The one good thing is you don't have to endure the lopsidedness for too long.
    Oh boy, you don't know me. I can't sleep last days, because my stats is 34-37 negative. It was better when i started 10-2, but since then the RnGesus puts me to a lot of already lost games. The current number after today is 6-24, imagine how i feel about more than 1/2 of my losses caused because there isn't a tool to prevent you joining too late.

    I even count for already won game my last one which i joined at 64-0 for my team, but we had the Fang already in Black Garden and 2 players more, it was 7 vs 5. They couldn't pick the Fang till the end, even more people joined after that. That's why the system needs some improvements, otherwise you are simply losing will to play PvP in Rift. And hence i'm trying to leech afk in Zone events, i'm losing will to play Rift. I remember why i quit WoW before 5 years and never came back - because i was focusing the PvP more, but slowly i started doing and farming all activities and raids possible not reducing the PvP time spent. Got sick of all that farm who looked like real life full time job. Merging the PvP and PvE content is doing the same thing to this game.

    P.s. Glad to see some improvements in last hotfix. Keep the tempo Trion.

  15. #15
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faeruna View Post
    Can't really think of a solution for this tbh.

    Maybe can add a factor into the ELO change that multiplies (or adds) to the ELO won or lost in proportion to the time spent in the WF. Though this may encourage slow wins so uh yeah, make it apply only to losses, the longer you were a part of the WF, the more ELO you lose.

    As to how to prevent the "late" joining of matches in the first place? Not reallly sure...
    You multiply the ELO change by a factor equal to the time you spent in the match divided by the total match time. It's not rocket science.

    But the better solution is to not have any ELO change for people who joined a wf late.

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