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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Trion's perspectives - let's consider them

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    Default Trion's perspectives - let's consider them

    Let's view suggestions from Trion's perspective. I regularly read player suggestions that the individual thinks are great, but is not in line at all from Trion's vantage. If folks are truly interested in seeing their suggestions implemented, then the 1st thing is to consider how the suggestion will be viewed by Trion… As a quick aside, it's also important to recognize that other players might not share your views. I am not arguing that these are good or bad positions, but it makes sense to understand their perspective before presenting our requests. We want to find synergy and a convergence of interests.

    1. Trion needs to make $. They are a FTP/pay for convenience platform, so without a subscription, they need to generate revenue from selling stuff. Cosmetic and convenience sales might not generate enough revenue, so sometimes they might need to sell gear.

    2. Trion has limited Dev. resources. So they likely spend those limited resources in a way that best achieves their objectives. PvP is not the main player base, so our concerns are not going to be top of the list.

    3. Trion wants people to log on. Hence they have the daily quests, daily/weekly gifts, etc. But it also means things like gated weekly currency and PvP crates which have a time based component to getting what you want. This means that various suggestions that make getting gear faster (like taking the RNG out of crate gear) may not align with Trion's objectives. There is a shared interest here as players won't log on if not having fun etc...

    4. PvE seems to generate most of their revenue. I don't know the actual #'s, so this is a bit of a presumption, but it seems to make sense. Presuming this is true, it means that they want to protect that main revenue stream by not unduly upsetting those players. Hence, PvE gear must remain best for PvE and PvP gear must stay at least a tier below so not to make the raiding community view they are messed over.

    5. Trion wants a larger player base. Hence they have tried to merge gear and currency to get PvP'ers to PvE and vice versa. This also means they don't want to lose the PvP player base, so have an incentive to address the major concerns if not doing so might cause folks to walk, so again, some convergence of interests here.

    6. Trion folks are mostly gamers and want a good product. I know the forums are filled with rage about how Trion doesn't care, but seriously, I really think they do. We are all mostly a subset of gamers... <Queue the Kumbaya music...> People want to be proud of their work, but there are limits to what they can do given all the points above. Yelling and insulting someone is not likely to get them to want and solve your problems.

    These are just a few which popped into my head and I am sure there are several other important things to keep in mind from Trion's perspective. If we want to really see changes implemented, I suggest we let these thoughts help guide our suggestions.

    Thanks,
    T

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    Except they keep raids around as prestige content for pvers knowing that's a drain.

    At some point even they have some integrity to the vision of the game, no matter the business sense... the problem is pvpers just want some of the same treatment. Or at least, give 3.0 gear changes, be able to play with everyone else by making their gear progression able to play with everyone else, just like they can with us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spaceboots View Post
    Except they keep raids around as prestige content for pvers knowing that's a drain.

    At some point even they have some integrity to the vision of the game, no matter the business sense... the problem is pvpers just want some of the same treatment. Or at least, give 3.0 gear changes, be able to play with everyone else by making their gear progression able to play with everyone else, just like they can with us.
    I hear what you want. But how does that fit into Trion's vision of the game and their perspectives?

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    Quote Originally Posted by spaceboots View Post
    Except they keep raids around as prestige content for pvers knowing that's a drain.

    At some point even they have some integrity to the vision of the game, no matter the business sense... the problem is pvpers just want some of the same treatment. Or at least, give 3.0 gear changes, be able to play with everyone else by making their gear progression able to play with everyone else, just like they can with us.
    Could you be more specific with what you are trying to say here?

    I'm not sure if you are complaining about not being able to go straight to T2 with PvP alone or if you are complaining about not being able to raid at all because you only do PvP or if you are trying to complain about something completely different.

    The only thing I can make of your post is that you are complaining about something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdain View Post
    I hear what you want. But how does that fit into Trion's vision of the game and their perspectives?
    Thats the complaint.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    I'm not sure if you are complaining about not being able to go straight to T2 with PvP alone or if you are complaining about not being able to raid at all because you only do PvP or if you are trying to complain about something completely different.
    No one ever asked for t2.. you're so desperate for a bite you just seem to be making stuff now at this point. It's getting as tiring as I may sound to you. ;)
    Last edited by spaceboots; 04-22-2015 at 06:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdain View Post
    2. Trion has limited Dev. resources. So they likely spend those limited resources in a way that best achieves their objectives. PvP is not the main player base, so our concerns are not going to be top of the list.
    this is the only real excuse for the state of pvp and class balance at the moment, and it isn't a very good one.

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    I would really like to keep this thread productive please. I fully appreciate that folks want to vent their frustrations, but that rarely leads to change.

    My main point is that we should acknowledge things as they are, not as we wish they were, and work effectively to bring about practical change. I believe the best way to make that happen is to think about our suggestions in a way that aligns our interests within the PvP community and Trion's overall interests as well, hopefully leading to a win-win solution.

    Thanks all,
    T
    Last edited by tdain; 04-22-2015 at 09:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdain View Post
    I would really like to keep this thread productive please. I fully appreciate that folks want to vent their frustrations, but that rarely leads to change.

    My main point is that we should acknowledge things as they are, not as we wish they were, and work effectively to bring about practical change. I believe the best way to make that happen is to think about our suggestions in a way that aligns our interests within the PvP community and Trion's overall interests as well, hopefully leading to a win-win solution.

    Thanks all,
    T
    there has been plenty of productive threads with little to no dev response. i've sent multiple 3000+ word pm's to multiple devs with lots or productive feedback, but there was no response for my effort.

    trion does what they want. feedback doesn't mean much. if it did, they'd at least acknowledge it rather than meet it with silence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spaceboots View Post
    Except they keep raids around as prestige content for pvers knowing that's a drain.

    At some point even they have some integrity to the vision of the game, no matter the business sense... the problem is pvpers just want some of the same treatment. Or at least, give 3.0 gear changes, be able to play with everyone else by making their gear progression able to play with everyone else, just like they can with us.
    Couple points:

    1) PvPers and PvEers aren't different groups of people. They're all RIFT players. All content is created for all players, whether or not each individual player makes use of all options.

    2) We agree we want more availability of gear progression. This was something we talked about quite a bit in relation to the sparkle quest. It's a long term goal, but something we do value.

    3) Gear is acquired through playing RIFT. There isn't a PvP only path or a PVE only path that is going to do so as quickly and efficiently as doing both. Ultimately you have to make a choice on how you want to earn gear, but the options are all available to you.

    P.S. Cleaned the thread up, lets try to keep bickering to a minimum.
    Last edited by Ocho; 04-22-2015 at 09:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Couple points:

    1) PvPers and PvEers aren't different groups of people. They're all RIFT players. All content is created for all players, whether or not each individual player makes use of all options.

    2) We agree we want more availability of gear progression. This was something we talked about quite a bit in relation to the sparkle quest. It's a long term goal, but something we do value.

    3) Gear is acquired through playing RIFT. There isn't a PvP only path or a PVE only path that is going to do so as quickly and efficiently as doing both. Ultimately you have to make a choice on how you want to earn gear, but the options are all available to you.

    P.S. Cleaned the thread up, lets try to keep bickering to a minimum.
    nearly all of the response to feedback from trion's end is about progression and participation and not about actual class balance and gameplay. gear progression doesn't mean much if the gameplay and class balance is sour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Couple points:

    Gear is acquired through playing RIFT. There isn't a PvP only path or a PVE only path that is going to do so as quickly and efficiently as doing both. Ultimately you have to make a choice on how you want to earn gear, but the options are all available to you.
    My observation is the PVE-only path is quite a bit quicker than the PVP-only path. Your thoughts?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Couple points:

    1) PvPers and PvEers aren't different groups of people. They're all RIFT players. All content is created for all players, whether or not each individual player makes use of all options.

    2) We agree we want more availability of gear progression. This was something we talked about quite a bit in relation to the sparkle quest. It's a long term goal, but something we do value.

    3) Gear is acquired through playing RIFT. There isn't a PvP only path or a PVE only path that is going to do so as quickly and efficiently as doing both. Ultimately you have to make a choice on how you want to earn gear, but the options are all available to you.

    P.S. Cleaned the thread up, lets try to keep bickering to a minimum.
    Thanks for your thoughts Ocho. While gear is acquired through playing RIFT, it seems the best gear for both PvE and PvP is only obtained via raiding which presents a challenge for those who don't raid.

    There does not seem to be a viable path for those who only PvP to obtain BIS gear for instanced PvP, whereas alternatively, there is a path for those who raid to obtain gear which will be BIS for both PvE and PvP. So, while players are free to choose how we want to earn gear, there is only 1 path that leads to BIS.

    Would Trion consider either an additional gear progression system for the PvP gear or further implementing your downbolster system to not require folks to raid for BIS PvP gear?

    Thanks much,
    T

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    Will any of the changes try to deal with afk players? One of my problems with Rift PvP at the moment is the number of people afk in WFs, I believe this is tied to being able to get pve gear for queuing for WFs. I see that you guys want us to participate in all activities and have incentivised the game so that participating in all aspects gears you up faster, but the practical result is people freeloading by afking through pvp content. This leads to lopsided games that I don't enjoy and won't play. I really enjoyed Rift, is there anything that can be done to help the afk situation?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Couple points:

    1) PvPers and PvEers aren't different groups of people. They're all RIFT players. All content is created for all players, whether or not each individual player makes use of all options.

    2) We agree we want more availability of gear progression. This was something we talked about quite a bit in relation to the sparkle quest. It's a long term goal, but something we do value.

    3) Gear is acquired through playing RIFT. There isn't a PvP only path or a PVE only path that is going to do so as quickly and efficiently as doing both. Ultimately you have to make a choice on how you want to earn gear, but the options are all available to you.

    P.S. Cleaned the thread up, lets try to keep bickering to a minimum.
    In the most polite way im going to have to strongly disagree with your statement.

    “PvPers and PvEers aren't different groups of people. They're all RIFT players”

    While its true we all do play rift so we are all in fact rifters. it’s a fact that you guys have created to separate groups of players pvp/pvers. Look at the changes that NT brought in, pvp gear =gone, rank =meaningless, flavor= worthless, outdated consumables, loss of pvp dailys and the loss of bis gear for pvp earned by pvping. These actions are the reason why pvpers feel like a separate 2nd rate class while playing rift.

    The now outdated tier 1 2 handed weapon in the rift store would take about 25 weeks to earn if I only do pvp dailies and weekly’s. want players to feel the same?then you need to increase the rewards from doing pvp and the time it takes to get said “outdated” gear. Even the gear that comes for wfs “box gear as I call it” it takes way to long to get a full set upgraded to max. why is that when the gear compared to raid gear is not even all that great?

    “We agree we want more availability of gear progression. This was something we talked about quite a bit in relation to the sparkle quest. It's a long term goal, but something we do value“.


    that’s sounds great and all but where’s the results? This type of thing should have been thought threw when NT started and pvp players lost their gear progression. Its been what 6 or 7 months since NT went like and gear gaps are getting bigger by the day.

    3) Gear is acquired through playing RIFT. There isn't a PvP only path or a PVE only path that is going to do so as quickly and efficiently as doing both. Ultimately you have to make a choice on how you want to earn gear, but the options are all available to you.

    Im fine with gearing a little slower if all I do is pvp compared to person who does all of the above. Right now though its way out of whack, most of the wf gear I can earn would be replaced with raid gear, so the point is? When it comes down to it players who choose to gear through wfs really do not have a choice. The gear we get from wfs is rng “not a choice” and that gear is no where near bis, not even in wfs. How is that a choice? I was able to earn one piece of tier 1 gear “shoulders” since I started playing again in February. that’s how slow “gearing” is doing so though wfs. If you want bis gear or anything close to it in a timely manner, you must raid, pvp is not an option.
    Last edited by butkus; 04-22-2015 at 11:14 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Couple points:

    1) PvPers and PvEers aren't different groups of people. They're all RIFT players. All content is created for all players, whether or not each individual player makes use of all options.

    2) We agree we want more availability of gear progression. This was something we talked about quite a bit in relation to the sparkle quest. It's a long term goal, but something we do value.

    3) Gear is acquired through playing RIFT. There isn't a PvP only path or a PVE only path that is going to do so as quickly and efficiently as doing both. Ultimately you have to make a choice on how you want to earn gear, but the options are all available to you.

    P.S. Cleaned the thread up, lets try to keep bickering to a minimum.
    Yes the the issue though. These decisions were made from the perspective of pvers, and with the goal of getting more pvers more easily into more content. Primarily expanding on the options of your biggest player base the casual zone zerging, IA, crafting people. If 1 through 3 are true, then I should be able to participate more than I can with my pvp gear.

    The gear from pvp is still there, you chose to make it pve gear instead of just normalizing everyone flat, so obviously you want some progression... the problem is you apparently want it to just stop at some expert+1 ilvl.

    At the end of the day, no matter how you word it, you looked at numbers, and said lets make the same gear for everyone, and make sure our biggest group of players can very easily do fine in pvp too. Doing the opposite would be too much of a headache, but only 5 people will care so thank goodness.

    And that goes back to OP's realistic points.

    Though I still don't know why it's such a big problem to take an absurd grind (like the seals...) onto pvp gear for previous tier gear that can as we all know be more easily gained from pve (especially now after the hotfix). But apparently thats an unpopular opinion as well because of age old, back in my day attitude of t2 raiders.
    Last edited by spaceboots; 04-22-2015 at 11:37 AM.

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