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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Trion's perspectives - let's consider them

  1. #16
    Plane Walker Sekirach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butkus View Post
    In the most polite way im going to have to strongly disagree with your statement.

    “PvPers and PvEers aren't different groups of people. They're all RIFT players”

    While its true we all do play rift so we are all in fact rifters. it’s a fact that you guys have created to separate groups of players pvp/pvers. Look at the changes that NT brought in, pvp gear =gone, rank =meaningless, flavor= worthless, outdated consumables, loss of pvp dailys and the loss of bis gear for pvp earned by pvping. These actions are the reason why pvpers feel like a separate 2nd rate class while playing rift.

    The now outdated tier 1 2 handed weapon in the rift store would take about 25 weeks to earn if I only do pvp dailies and weekly’s. want players to feel the same?then you need to increase the rewards from doing pvp and the time it takes to get said “outdated” gear. Even the gear that comes for wfs “box gear as I call it” it takes way to long to get a full set upgraded to max. why is that when the gear compared to raid gear is not even all that great?

    “We agree we want more availability of gear progression. This was something we talked about quite a bit in relation to the sparkle quest. It's a long term goal, but something we do value“.


    that’s sounds great and all but where’s the results? This type of thing should have been thought threw when NT started and pvp players lost their gear progression. Its been what 6 or 7 months since NT went like and gear gaps are getting bigger by the day.

    3) Gear is acquired through playing RIFT. There isn't a PvP only path or a PVE only path that is going to do so as quickly and efficiently as doing both. Ultimately you have to make a choice on how you want to earn gear, but the options are all available to you.

    Im fine with gearing a little slower if all I do is pvp compared to person who does all of the above. Right now though its way out of whack, most of the wf gear I can earn would be replaced with raid gear, so the point is? When it comes down to it players who choose to gear through wfs really do not have a choice. The gear we get from wfs is rng “not a choice” and that gear is no where near bis, not even in wfs. How is that a choice? I was able to earn one piece of tier 1 gear “shoulders” since I started playing again in February. that’s how slow “gearing” is doing so though wfs. If you want bis gear or anything close to it in a timely manner, you must raid, pvp is not an option.
    in most polite way ill have to compleatly agree with all stated above. i feel exactly the same.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Couple points:

    1) PvPers and PvEers aren't different groups of people. They're all RIFT players. All content is created for all players, whether or not each individual player makes use of all options.

    2) We agree we want more availability of gear progression. This was something we talked about quite a bit in relation to the sparkle quest. It's a long term goal, but something we do value.

    3) Gear is acquired through playing RIFT. There isn't a PvP only path or a PVE only path that is going to do so as quickly and efficiently as doing both. Ultimately you have to make a choice on how you want to earn gear, but the options are all available to you.

    P.S. Cleaned the thread up, lets try to keep bickering to a minimum.
    The first statement while true, is way to general. Within the people that play Rift there are two seperate groups of people. Some people like myself play both and love both but many people only do PVE or PVP and resent having to be forced into doing both to keep up.

    I think a valiant attempt was made to try and get people to enjoy both but the thing I think you may need to accept is that people would rather leave or move to another game then be forced outside of their comfort zone.

    At the very least the progression path right now way to heavily favors raiding over pvp and you can't make the argument that raiding you can't just AFK for gear cause we all know that can be done once a boss is on farm. There is the initial progression where everyone needs to be one the ball but there is a reason the term "on farm" was invented.

    I think it also hurts that pvp right now is so limited. You have warfronts, and you have conquest (which is in a very bad state right now). Open World pvp has more or less ceased to exist and Trion has done nothing to encourage its growth, in fact they have actively stunted it by removing things like pvp rifts.

    I want Trion to be successful, so take this in the spirit it is intended, but pvp needs lots of love right now. It needs a viable progression and it needs more alternatives. And I say this, ignore pvp at your own peril. How many successfull MMO's in the modern day do you know that have dismissed pvp's important? None.

    Having a dev who is actually responsible for pvp specifically might be a good start. I mean just one dev. We have a dungeon and raid team, live content team, we have dimension and crafting devs. But again pvp is looked over. Its doubly strange since I know both Daglar and Archonix are fans of pvp.
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  3. #18
    Rift Disciple Nidhoggr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post

    1) PvPers and PvEers aren't different groups of people. They're all RIFT players. All content is created for all players, whether or not each individual player makes use of all options.
    Why does RIFT have PvE, PvP & RP Shards? Does this not indicate 3 different groups of people? Would an RP guild form on a PvP shard, if we're all just RIFT players after all? If we're all just RIFT players, then why don't we have just 1 queue button that randomly places us in either a warfront, dungeon, conquest or instant adventure etc?

    PvPers & PvEers ARE different groups of people.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by butkus View Post
    In the most polite way im going to have to strongly disagree with your statement.

    “PvPers and PvEers aren't different groups of people. They're all RIFT players”

    While its true we all do play rift so we are all in fact rifters. it’s a fact that you guys have created to separate groups of players pvp/pvers. Look at the changes that NT brought in, pvp gear =gone, rank =meaningless, flavor= worthless, outdated consumables, loss of pvp dailys and the loss of bis gear for pvp earned by pvping. These actions are the reason why pvpers feel like a separate 2nd rate class while playing rift.

    The now outdated tier 1 2 handed weapon in the rift store would take about 25 weeks to earn if I only do pvp dailies and weekly’s. want players to feel the same?then you need to increase the rewards from doing pvp and the time it takes to get said “outdated” gear. Even the gear that comes for wfs “box gear as I call it” it takes way to long to get a full set upgraded to max. why is that when the gear compared to raid gear is not even all that great?

    “We agree we want more availability of gear progression. This was something we talked about quite a bit in relation to the sparkle quest. It's a long term goal, but something we do value“.


    that’s sounds great and all but where’s the results? This type of thing should have been thought threw when NT started and pvp players lost their gear progression. Its been what 6 or 7 months since NT went like and gear gaps are getting bigger by the day.

    3) Gear is acquired through playing RIFT. There isn't a PvP only path or a PVE only path that is going to do so as quickly and efficiently as doing both. Ultimately you have to make a choice on how you want to earn gear, but the options are all available to you.

    Im fine with gearing a little slower if all I do is pvp compared to person who does all of the above. Right now though its way out of whack, most of the wf gear I can earn would be replaced with raid gear, so the point is? When it comes down to it players who choose to gear through wfs really do not have a choice. The gear we get from wfs is rng “not a choice” and that gear is no where near bis, not even in wfs. How is that a choice? I was able to earn one piece of tier 1 gear “shoulders” since I started playing again in February. that’s how slow “gearing” is doing so though wfs. If you want bis gear or anything close to it in a timely manner, you must raid, pvp is not an option.
    I would like to agree with this as well.
    Trion is so sure that he made the right decision with removing pvp gear, and make "the gear". and it is cause they had some complaints about raiding people that cant pvp, and some who did pvp but couldnt raid.
    But I would like to ask, did this decision lead to a bigger, more satisfied player base? When I left rift(IRL reasons), about 1.5 years ago I was in a really good pvp guild (Lords of War) on Bloodiron, the server was well populated, every day open world guild fights in dendrome, steppes etc. All the time premade cq matches, the guild had sometimes premades in all 3 factions, stillmoor cq was fun, people participating, listening to lead. And now? I came back 3 weeks ago, bloodiron is completely dead, the only guild on defiant side is a russian one, who ignore everyone who tries to talk to them english, auction house dead as well obviously. After 2 weeks I transferred to Gelidra, and here at least there is community, but the pvp in the game is a joke, wfs full of afk people, cq as well, people only join at timer to try to get in the winning team, not seeing almost any leaders any more.
    So my question is, do you at Trion think that this was a good decision to listen to those complaining people, and change the whole prestige and gear system which worked very well(prestige means nothing atm). Because as I see the game compared to those times it went backwards and not forwards, and it is not really good to see. And I for one would be really happy, to see pvp and pve gear separated again.
    Sorry for wall of text, and thanks for reading!

  5. #20
    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spaceboots View Post
    Except they keep raids around as prestige content for pvers knowing that's a drain.

    At some point even they have some integrity to the vision of the game, no matter the business sense... the problem is pvpers just want some of the same treatment. Or at least, give 3.0 gear changes, be able to play with everyone else by making their gear progression able to play with everyone else, just like they can with us.
    You realise that 2 of the last 3 raid tiers have been re-hashed content, right? Two of these tiers don't even have 10-mans. The most recent tier is so undertuned, untested, and unfinished that one guild cleared all of it in the first week (the last boss was disabled because -- surprise! -- it doesn't work), raiding little more than they usually do -- 25 hours for 10 bosses. The previous tier was little better. You can now cap on marks for raid gear without setting foot inside a raid; gear which is, by the way, so expensive to obtain and side-grade / upgrade as to be extremely prohibitive for people that don't spend credits. You get more raid marks for a crafting weekly (pay to turn-in, of course) than you do for killing a raid boss.

    You want some of the same treatment? Let me tell you something: you'll be pretty ****ing disappointed, unless you've been itching for some new, infinitely worse version of The Codex.
    Last edited by Ianto Jones; 04-22-2015 at 03:01 PM.

  6. #21
    Shield of Telara Talzoor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Couple points:

    1) PvPers and PvEers aren't different groups of people. They're all RIFT players. All content is created for all players, whether or not each individual player makes use of all options.
    The problem with this is, Rift is divided in to subgroups, as certain activities only appeal to certain players. Hence the recent the Raid nerfs. They specifically show how the content wasn't created for all players. If it was, all players would be completing the content and not just a select few. That content was specifically designed for a niche type of player. Even raiders themselves proudly tout that raiding shouldn't be for everyone and reject the nerfs.

    I'm sorry sir but this myth is debunked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    3) Gear is acquired through playing RIFT. There isn't a PvP only path or a PVE only path that is going to do so as quickly and efficiently as doing both. Ultimately you have to make a choice on how you want to earn gear, but the options are all available to you.
    The problem here is, the pve only path is confirmed 100% a quicker route to pvp progression. Not only that it's a more complete path of progression as you are able to get items like bis weapons/trinkets etc in raids that you can't find anywhere else.

    Now of course their are "better" specialized items you can get in pvp. To which, I wouldn't know, because after 6 months of playing I still have to use crafted capes and items because every single item I get from pvp including essences are endurance heavy (SOL for me I know).

    Back to the point, you can get all you need and more for pvp by pveing. You can barely get what you need to pvp (effectively) by pvping. Which means we really don't have a "choice" in the matter. Unless by "choice" you mean raid or forever be subpar in pvp (an unrelated activity btw) to those who do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    3) Gear is acquired through playing RIFT. There isn't a PvP only path or a PVE only path that is going to do so as quickly and efficiently as doing both.
    Sorry again but this myth is debunked.

    To be a little transparent on my agenda, I would like to see pve gear down-bolstered to NTE level FOR ALL PVP ACTIVITIES. From there I would like to see an additional progression route for pvp. Akin to a slight pvp boost for the dedicated pvper. Maybe better consumables bought with favor. Prestige rank added bonuses. With the normalization it would be safe to open up world pvp again and with the additional progression route it would motivation to venture out in these worlds.

    You could even tie prestige to a new (or old) pvp weekly quest and remove it from kills (remember Aquatic Equinox Pods)? This would cap the gain of prestige and discourage kill trading.

    You clearly create Raids content with a certain group in mind. However when it comes to pvp and people ask for normalization and/or its own progression route you conveniently say "There is no pve or pvp there is only raid--I mean there is only RIFT!"
    Last edited by Talzoor; 04-22-2015 at 03:45 PM.

  7. #22
    Ascendant Rheven's Avatar
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    I believe Spaceboots is on to something. I have always felt the 3.0 changes to PvP, along with other issues, are being primarily driven by developer hours. It was simply cost effective to toss PvP focused people under the bus. Add to that the raider complaints about valor and vengance which required them to actually PvP in order to progress and that about covers the field.

    And that's cool but don't come on about how this was just all about everybody being the same with no differentiation and all. We'll be having Kumbaya singalongs next!

    Only TRION knows but I think PvP numbers are down. Kinda like why bother. And there are some issues they refuse to address:

    1. I was in a CQ today and my team had like 9 people against two full raids. I thought you guys were fixing this. How much longer do you intend to go on feeding the big guilds.

    2. I was in a BG that lasted ten minutes or so and we had one team member that never left spawn the entire time! How is this even possible? Or just another area TRION is uninterested in fixing.

    3. The new PvP scorecard thing keeps us well informed as to our wins and losses. So I am thinking about that of course. I had one of my rogues playing Monday to knock out her ten randoms and finish the two quests. She had 3 of 8 losses in those situations were you are thrown into losing WFs very near the end. In fact, one PS allowed only time to return home as it was over by time I entered. I doubt this can even happen to PreMades, another built in advantage as if they didn't already have enough.

    I don't really want Rift to fold but it's hard not to be distressed about their direction. Maybe I should just log into the Store and buy something. Shopping usually improves my mood!
    Last edited by Rheven; 04-22-2015 at 03:51 PM.
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheven View Post
    I believe Spaceboots is on to something. I have always felt the 3.0 changes to PvP, along with other issues, are being primarily driven by developer hours.
    Surely it's cheaper to make a new PvP map then develop a new Expert dungeon. There is hardly any cost for making PvP content, all they need to do is pick a map, mark 2 starting zones and an objective (clickable flag e.t.c.). All the mechanics are already programmed. Heck, I bet PvPers would be happy with a straight up 10 v 10 fight to the death arena style.


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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Couple points:

    1) PvPers and PvEers aren't different groups of people.
    That can be typed as much as you want but, they are. The desires are different, the goals are different, the preferred experience is different. The activities are stark in difference of experience too. With this logic swallowed the only people who are about it are the hybrids. Prior to 3.0 it was down to free will to basically do both, either, or. Now it's obligated to do both. So yes, you retained all the players who stood in the center, but by adding in the aspect of more obligation pushed away the two more end points of the bell curve. More pure PvP'ers who don't want to engage in PvE, and the opposite. You are left with the people who did it upon their free will in the first placed, and if not pushed away, annoyed the people who had very direct preferences that were clearly provided with full structure to be happy with.

    It sounds like a gamble, I hope the return was worth it. Then again, after taking so many statistic type classes, I hate to say that if you make a gamble on reinforcing the height of your curve of player desires, that you probably will bring more in than those who are pushed away. After all, I admit that I referred to the more pure players as the smaller crowds on the polar ends of the curve hump. But since when was gaming ever about middle grounds and not pure desires? Sucks for anyone who missed the 90s.

    But the blanket logic of assuming, player plays Rift, player will engage in PvP and PvE. You might as well open a restaurant and see how many people eat the big veggie appetizer, the main steak, and the side of seafood. You'd lose my business, because I just wanted a steak. But if you are going to up the price and include all this junk I never wanted, I'll find another steak joint who simply makes what I desire and doesn't force anything else down my throat. Or at least obligate me to eat it by making it a package deal dish with no exclusions.

    Slick way to make an analogy and pun literal, eh? Either way - they just aren't the same. That is silly. Never will be.
    Last edited by Violacea; 04-23-2015 at 07:12 AM.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdain View Post
    I would really like to keep this thread productive please. I fully appreciate that folks want to vent their frustrations, but that rarely leads to change.

    My main point is that we should acknowledge things as they are, not as we wish they were, and work effectively to bring about practical change. I believe the best way to make that happen is to think about our suggestions in a way that aligns our interests within the PvP community and Trion's overall interests as well, hopefully leading to a win-win solution.

    Thanks all,
    T
    I wish I could be more constructive, but for me the problem is all the changes made in new expac to pvpers and since there is no rollback, I truly cannot see any way to resolve this. How can you make me feel I have value again?

    I don't understand bolstering and I personally do not believe it is anything more than an Urban Myth. I lose more than I win and ELO goes up????

    I don't understand the gear now as it relates to stats. I put on more Dex but my stat goes down cuz what I took away, although it doesn't say Dex its lowers it.

    You want constructive, get rid of premades, give us back our gear progression and stop trying to force us to do what we don't want to do.

    And yes, I am going elsewhere.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilkoss View Post
    Surely it's cheaper to make a new PvP map then develop a new Expert dungeon. There is hardly any cost for making PvP content, all they need to do is pick a map, mark 2 starting zones and an objective (clickable flag e.t.c.). All the mechanics are already programmed. Heck, I bet PvPers would be happy with a straight up 10 v 10 fight to the death arena style.
    Oh... is that really the only thing they need to do?
    I wouldn't know since I don't work for them.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fopod View Post
    Oh... is that really the only thing they need to do?
    I wouldn't know since I don't work for them.
    He was right and you don't have to guess about how hard it is to make a Warfront. We already know it takes one Saturday to make a WF, we know this because Dags told us right after he made BG Domination. Came in one day, boom , we got a new map. Welcome to Rift, you will fit right in with the new crowd.
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bliter View Post
    Welcome to Rift, you will fit right in with the new crowd.
    1. I'm not new to Rift.
    2. You just can't see the forest for the trees.

  14.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheven View Post
    And that's cool but don't come on about how this was just all about everybody being the same with no differentiation and all. We'll be having Kumbaya singalongs next!

    Only TRION knows but I think PvP numbers are down. Kinda like why bother. And there are some issues they refuse to address:

    1. I was in a CQ today and my team had like 9 people against two full raids. I thought you guys were fixing this. How much longer do you intend to go on feeding the big guilds.

    2. I was in a BG that lasted ten minutes or so and we had one team member that never left spawn the entire time! How is this even possible? Or just another area TRION is uninterested in fixing.

    3. The new PvP scorecard thing keeps us well informed as to our wins and losses. So I am thinking about that of course. I had one of my rogues playing Monday to knock out her ten randoms and finish the two quests. She had 3 of 8 losses in those situations were you are thrown into losing WFs very near the end. In fact, one PS allowed only time to return home as it was over by time I entered. I doubt this can even happen to PreMades, another built in advantage as if they didn't already have enough.
    Kumbaya.

    1. We're still intending to test the limits to premades in Conquest. That being said, it's taking a little more work than we initially guessed. No strict timeline on this one right now, but work is in progress.

    2. Did you vote them AFK?

    3. This is something which I'm currently discussing with the team, to see if we can potentially find a resolution.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    2. Did you vote them AFK?
    Voting them AFK does something in warfronts? Most time people just could stay in the same spot standing there doing some jumping or doing some other useless stuff which does not contribute, but still let them ignore the afk vote.
    I reported people via tickets who afked several games, but this seems to be also useless.
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