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Thread: ELO sytem - sense?

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple Fomal's Avatar
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    Default ELO sytem - sense?

    Hy,

    I would recommend to delete the whole ELO-system and to combine groups via prestige-LvL or gear-points in the future. First thing I did today after I downloaded the patch was PvP, only to see how useless the current ELO-system is.

    First I was put into an ongoing library with 980 points for the opponent team. So, after ~ 10 seconds I had my first loss.

    In second warfront I was put into an ongoing Karthan-Ridge. The other team was 2-0 in the lead an with two stones on the way to destroy out last cannon. Second loss after less than 1 minute of playing.

    Third I was put into Ghar Station. We were 7 players, 3 of them left after ~ 30 seconds. So I decided to go offline, because I had had enough for today.

    In other words, the ELO-system punished me, for losses which I was not responsible for.

    Under this circumstances (players can leave warfronts, no healers in group, you have been put into already lost warfronts, pre-made teams, and so on) an ELO-system makes no sense in my eyes. So please find a better way to create groups.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Zehne's Avatar
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    /sigh

    as it's been stated over and over and over again.

    The rift ELO system has been around for a LONG time.

    The only difference now is you can see the number. None of what you've said is new news. Matchmaking is still the same as it has been for awhile now.

  3. #3
    Telaran
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    It's just another number for people to obsess over - the system still works as it always has (at least as it has for the awhile now).

    The latest epeen number - break out the ruler.
    Dreambreaker Zithsic - P100 Warrior
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  4. #4
    Rift Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zehne View Post
    /sigh

    as it's been stated over and over and over again.

    The rift ELO system has been around for a LONG time.

    The only difference now is you can see the number. None of what you've said is new news. Matchmaking is still the same as it has been for awhile now.
    Knowing intellectually you are fat is not the same as seeing yourself in the store mirror in a new bathing suit.

  5. #5
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zehne View Post
    /sigh

    as it's been stated over and over and over again.

    The rift ELO system has been around for a LONG time.

    The only difference now is you can see the number. None of what you've said is new news. Matchmaking is still the same as it has been for awhile now.
    There seems to be some misinformation floating around here. If I'm not mistaken there was a change to the ELO system around 2.7 (+/- a revision) when people had artificially inflated ELO's from playing pad AOE specs and essentially being granted a win for Warlord Skilling Field Spam macros by topping damage. While the system has been around for a while, I'd be interested to know the changes that occurred during the time it was discovered Fernand broke ELO and had his statue given to him haha.
    Last edited by JudeFromKale; 04-16-2015 at 07:21 AM.

  6. #6
    Ascendant Zehne's Avatar
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    2.7....

    I think that 3.0 and beyond qualifies for 'awhile now'

    new levels, new ranks, new WF's, and more than enough time for the ELO to settle into the scores they currently are.

    The way matchmaking is, ELO is no longer a competitive score, it reflects your overall team status, not your status. (unless you abandon WF's alot, then your ELO reflects that alright)

  7. #7
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zehne View Post
    2.7....

    I think that 3.0 and beyond qualifies for 'awhile now'

    new levels, new ranks, new WF's, and more than enough time for the ELO to settle into the scores they currently are.

    The way matchmaking is, ELO is no longer a competitive score, it reflects your overall team status, not your status. (unless you abandon WF's alot, then your ELO reflects that alright)
    I'm confused. You realise the ELO's were not reset in 3.0?

  8. #8
    Plane Walker regall's Avatar
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    Decided not to look at elo rating after 2 wf's

    1 win. 1 loss.

    loss = ported in at the moment the wf was lost. elo unchanged after win.

    /shrugi'llleaveittotheexperts

  9. #9
    Soulwalker
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    http://i.imgur.com/4ERFNS3.jpg

    However, I've not met any teams in whitefall steppes or codex that have greater than 110% mount.

    My mage on the other hand has an ELO of 770 or so and only ever meets 150% mounts+ and those 8k crits my warrior never sees? yes it does them. Although it meets players with Infestation crits of 17k @ 3k resist, whereas my warrior does Infestation crits of 12k.

    Not only afk teams, but in EU there is a high proportion of teams that refuse to increase the score divide (ignoring stones in GharSE /\ flag points anywhere /\ etc) maintaining score parity neck-a-neck until the last minute.

    I simply refuse to believe that 5 people, on the same team I find myself on, have their will broken.

    At least my ranger is at 1172

  10. #10
    Ascendant SprawlnBrawl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Debilitato View Post
    http://i.imgur.com/4ERFNS3.jpg

    However, I've not met any teams in whitefall steppes or codex that have greater than 110% mount.

    My mage on the other hand has an ELO of 770 or so and only ever meets 150% mounts+ and those 8k crits my warrior never sees? yes it does them. Although it meets players with Infestation crits of 17k @ 3k resist, whereas my warrior does Infestation crits of 12k.

    Not only afk teams, but in EU there is a high proportion of teams that refuse to increase the score divide (ignoring stones in GharSE /\ flag points anywhere /\ etc) maintaining score parity neck-a-neck until the last minute.

    I simply refuse to believe that 5 people, on the same team I find myself on, have their will broken.

    At least my ranger is at 1172
    Well for whatever reason you tried to hide everything I can see they you don't show hp and % on your target window which is the first sign you are not doing many things right to improve yourself as a pvper

  11. #11
    Rift Disciple Kimatsu's Avatar
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    ELO is working as intended.
    It's what Trion does with ELO and how they're implementing it for matchmaking that is FUBAR'd.

  12. #12
    Ascendant Zehne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudeFromKale View Post
    I'm confused. You realise the ELO's were not reset in 3.0?
    Yes I realize that. Do you realize that ELO is a changing number by design?

    You don't need an ELO reset for it to settle at a number that reflects your status.
    You only need time/games played.

    4.0, 5.0, 6.0 and beyond.
    Trion won't have to reset ELO, it's only a matter of time before peoples ELO will change to reflect their new overall win/loss status.

    ELO isn't effected by your history per say. It's effected by the difference between your current score and the opponents, or in rifts case, your teams current score and your opponents current score.

    It doesn't take much thinking to realize how much error can exist in such a system. An individual has their scores changed based on the outcome of 10v10, 15v15, 20v20. So their individual efforts or lack there of are marginalized by the masses.

    Furthermore, you add in the fact that there are multiple roles/classes, and the error gets larger and larger. As a dps, you can perform much better when a single good healer or two is backing you up. If you don't have one, your performance is much lower. As a healer, without a good group of dps, your performance is much lower. All in all, since the system only looks at the outcome, and you are masked by 9-19 other players, It's really hard for any system, even given enough win/loss points to spit out any number accurate of your true value.

    tldr;
    ELO is a bottom line number, it's only a very rough estimate of your worth at best.

  13. #13
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zehne View Post
    Yes I realize that. Do you realize that ELO is a changing number by design?

    You don't need an ELO reset for it to settle at a number that reflects your status.
    You only need time/games played.

    4.0, 5.0, 6.0 and beyond.
    Trion won't have to reset ELO, it's only a matter of time before peoples ELO will change to reflect their new overall win/loss status.

    ELO isn't effected by your history per say. It's effected by the difference between your current score and the opponents, or in rifts case, your teams current score and your opponents current score.

    It doesn't take much thinking to realize how much error can exist in such a system. An individual has their scores changed based on the outcome of 10v10, 15v15, 20v20. So their individual efforts or lack there of are marginalized by the masses.

    Furthermore, you add in the fact that there are multiple roles/classes, and the error gets larger and larger. As a dps, you can perform much better when a single good healer or two is backing you up. If you don't have one, your performance is much lower. As a healer, without a good group of dps, your performance is much lower. All in all, since the system only looks at the outcome, and you are masked by 9-19 other players, It's really hard for any system, even given enough win/loss points to spit out any number accurate of your true value.

    tldr;
    ELO is a bottom line number, it's only a very rough estimate of your worth at best.
    Okay, let me go back and explain myself a little better.

    When you say ELO has been in the game for a while, you are correct - however what you are leaving out is there were two drastically different systems. One which accounted for things outside of W/L such as damage, healing etc. The issue is that people had multiple ways to achieve the current high ELO they have, whereas a new player has to do it with a less rewarding system. I'd like to actually see this confirmed by a dev, but I expect its the case.

    With less qualifiers, it's unlikely people will reach the high ELO people have now.

  14. #14
    Plane Touched Sinsalot's Avatar
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    PvP is broken, Elo is just one of the nails not the coffin.

  15. #15
    Ascendant Zehne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudeFromKale View Post
    Okay, let me go back and explain myself a little better.

    When you say ELO has been in the game for a while, you are correct - however what you are leaving out is there were two drastically different systems. One which accounted for things outside of W/L such as damage, healing etc. The issue is that people had multiple ways to achieve the current high ELO they have, whereas a new player has to do it with a less rewarding system. I'd like to actually see this confirmed by a dev, but I expect its the case.

    With less qualifiers, it's unlikely people will reach the high ELO people have now.
    I understood, and what I said was(paraphrase): That doesn't matter, the only way they would keep their 'un-fair' high ELO is if they didn't play since the change to the system. Overtime they'd automatically balance out. No ELO reset is required since ELO 'resets' every game you play.

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