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Thread: Why can't we get bis PvP armor for participating in pvp?

  1. #31
    Champion of Telara
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    Let's suppose that Trion actually surprises everyone and implements it so that all PvE-related gear is downbolstered correctly and without exceptions, including weapon procs. What will be the situation? PvP gear will be BiS for PvP and PvE will be BiS for PvE. Which means that a player that wants to do both will need to have 2 seperate gear sets, one for PvE and one for PvP (let's leave the tank or crit heavy or ap/sp heavy argument outside for now). Therefore the gear unification that was part of the expansion would have been abandoned.

    Personally I'm fine with that. I'd go as far as suggest that gear should even be raid-focused or world-focused, with world-focus gear improving open world performance and raid-focus improving instance performance. Because as an ex-raider (but not casual, hardcore actually), I find it annoying that someone who farms dungeons for 1 week will have better performance in daily quests and zone events and Nightmare Rifts than someone who has been farming Void Stones 6 months now.

  2. #32
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Mits View Post
    Let's suppose that Trion actually surprises everyone and implements it so that all PvE-related gear is downbolstered correctly and without exceptions, including weapon procs. What will be the situation? PvP gear will be BiS for PvP and PvE will be BiS for PvE. Which means that a player that wants to do both will need to have 2 seperate gear sets, one for PvE and one for PvP (let's leave the tank or crit heavy or ap/sp heavy argument outside for now). Therefore the gear unification that was part of the expansion would have been abandoned.

    Personally I'm fine with that. I'd go as far as suggest that gear should even be raid-focused or world-focused, with world-focus gear improving open world performance and raid-focus improving instance performance. Because as an ex-raider (but not casual, hardcore actually), I find it annoying that someone who farms dungeons for 1 week will have better performance in daily quests and zone events and Nightmare Rifts than someone who has been farming Void Stones 6 months now.
    the PvEer would not need two sets of gear, as his PvE gear would still be downbolstered to the same level as BiS PvP gear.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    the PvEer would not need two sets of gear, as his PvE gear would still be downbolstered to the same level as BiS PvP gear.
    Which means that BiS PvP armor wouldn't come from PvP! It would come from both PvP and PvE. But BiS PvE wouldn't come from PvP. It would still be an imbalance.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Debilitato View Post
    Nope, reread.

    It's too easily 'arranged'.

    That problem with PvE players having an advantage; once people start getting Best-in-PvP gear they'll finally start talking..... to each other.

    You lot are basically asking Trion if you can troll the PvP scene in a larger group than skills provide.

    Seeing as you probably wont read, the downbolstering could easily be applied to PvE procs and maintain some form of continuity, whilst also making pvp weapons BiPvP
    Sorry if I misunderstood your post, but I don't really get your argument. Yes, I appreciate it's possible to arrange groups to win swap and have seen that happen, but it's pretty rare. If your main concern is that PvP will get overrun with win swapping, then I think you are overstating that as a likely scenario. That would be far more likely if PvP provided BIS gear, but if we are just providing a path to BIS PvP gear that will still only be average PvE gear due to downbolstering, then I really don't see that as very likely on a large scale.

    I think it's fair to be concerned about this potential, but I wouldn't design the PvP gear progression path around it since it's not that hard to spot large scale win trading and Trion could come down hard with bans that would provide negative enforcement against such activity. I also just don't see the incentive. There are always bad apples, but I don't see that happening on a large scale.

    We are talking about gearing up over several weeks/months and providing a viable gear progression path for PvP'ers. I just don't see any downside to finishing Trion's own vision of downbolstering.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Mits View Post
    Let's suppose that Trion actually surprises everyone and implements it so that all PvE-related gear is downbolstered correctly and without exceptions, including weapon procs. What will be the situation? PvP gear will be BiS for PvP and PvE will be BiS for PvE. Which means that a player that wants to do both will need to have 2 seperate gear sets, one for PvE and one for PvP (let's leave the tank or crit heavy or ap/sp heavy argument outside for now). Therefore the gear unification that was part of the expansion would have been abandoned.

    Personally I'm fine with that. I'd go as far as suggest that gear should even be raid-focused or world-focused, with world-focus gear improving open world performance and raid-focus improving instance performance. Because as an ex-raider (but not casual, hardcore actually), I find it annoying that someone who farms dungeons for 1 week will have better performance in daily quests and zone events and Nightmare Rifts than someone who has been farming Void Stones 6 months now.
    PvE'ers would need only 1 set for both and PvP'ers would eventually have their PvE gear replace their PvP gear. There would be no need for multiple sets since high level PvE gear will get downbolstered to be the best PvP gear available, so no need to farm for a separate set of PvP gear. PvP'ers who also want to PvE will need to PvE for additional gear with their PvP gear as a tier or two below.

    You are just putting caps on gear stats in instanced PvP and providing a path for those who only PvP to obtain that gear. If they want to get top level gear for PvE, they will have to PvE.

    What's the downside to this for anyone?

  6. #36
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    Trading wins is not really a good way of progressing anyway.
    If you are good you'll win and won't need to trade and you'll easily get a higher than 1.0 win rate.
    If you are bad you'll trade and get a 0.5 win ratio.
    As for BiS gear for PvP. Anyone who is a pver will upgrade their epic weapons from pve into relic, it'll get bolstered down and worse than the pvp BiS gear.
    Most PVP gear for armors is actually BiS for pve aswell.
    Belt, rings, earrings and cape, untill they added Tyrants Forge this was the case for legs/boots aswell.
    Now if you can clear HM crucia you can get the BiS cape, only one guild has done this so far.
    They get bolstered down in PvP anyway so the PvP cape is still the BiS in this scenario.
    0.3/8 ID 2.123/4 PF

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Mits View Post
    Which means that BiS PvP armor wouldn't come from PvP! It would come from both PvP and PvE. But BiS PvE wouldn't come from PvP. It would still be an imbalance.
    PvE gear would be down bolstered to the "standard set" (just like the up bolster now).
    this would mean it would have a balanced amount of crit power, phys/spell crit, and ap/sp.
    it wouldn't be stacked in any one stat, such as crit power.

    it would be the same level as pvp bis, but not necessarily the bis stats.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Mits View Post
    Which means that BiS PvP armor wouldn't come from PvP! It would come from both PvP and PvE. But BiS PvE wouldn't come from PvP. It would still be an imbalance.
    Yes - exactly, and don't see any problem with that. The objective is to just have PvP provide a path (doesn't need to be the only path) to the best PvP gear available in instanced PvP. I don't need my PvP gear to be superior to someone who raids, I just don't want it to be inferior.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    PvE gear would be down bolstered to the "standard set" (just like the up bolster now).
    this would mean it would have a balanced amount of crit power, phys/spell crit, and ap/sp.
    it wouldn't be stacked in any one stat, such as crit power.

    it would be the same level as pvp bis, but not necessarily the bis stats.
    Sounds fine to me.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    and if you recall, the pvpers still asked for more.
    particularly that the pvp gear be brought up to the same level as raid gear.
    The evil genie grants another wish.

    It's like the Twilight Zone episode. Guy kept getting cynical wishes granted from a genie. Finally wished to be the most powerful person on the Earth and was warped back and made into Hitler.

    (Although probably not much time warping as it seems considering the era of that show)
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  11. #41
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    IMHO unifying the gear systems for PvE and PvP beyond the state of SL (only common item were RiC from conquest) was one of the worst decisions Trion has ever made. It has made favor near useless, and in addition it is now forcing players to participate in PvP if they want to be competitive in PvE, and vice versa, even if they don't enjoy that activity.
    The fact that there is still a separate PvP server for each cluster shows that Trion does acknowledge that there is a difference between PvP and PvE, and that there are people who wish to participate in only one of them. Looking at that, the removal of PvP-specific gear has never made sense to me.
    And please don't bring up accessibility. A gearing process is part of every good MMO. Nobody in their right mind has ever questioned the fact that a freshly level-capped player has to spend a while farming gear before he can set foot in a raid. So why shouldn't a PvPer who wants to try, or switch to PvE, be required to do the same? And why should a dedicated PvPer have no significant advantage IN HIS OWN FIELD against people who jump into a warfront occasionally, but don't want to focus on PvP and get the specific gear? Why the hell would you not reward a high dedication to either PvP or PvE with an advantage over players who don't show the same dedication?
    Athanil@Gelidra <Harshmallows>
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athanil View Post
    ... Why the hell would you not reward a high dedication to either PvP or PvE with an advantage over players who don't show the same dedication?
    I think this is a separate matter worth discussion and debate as there are different views, but it's also a deviation from the topic at hand.

    The current issue is whether Trion will implement their original vision of down bolstering which will enable PvP'ers to have a path to the best gear in instanced PvP. It need not be the only path, or even the most efficient or "fair," but at least a viable path of gear progression for their preferred content...

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdain View Post
    I think this is a separate matter worth discussion and debate as there are different views, but it's also a deviation from the topic at hand.

    The current issue is whether Trion will implement their original vision of down bolstering which will enable PvP'ers to have a path to the best gear in instanced PvP. It need not be the only path, or even the most efficient or "fair," but at least a viable path of gear progression for their preferred content...
    I tend to agree with this.

    of all the PvP "issues" that need to be addressed, this seems to be the easiest for Trion. simply match the upper bolster with the Dreambreaker gear, the same as the lower bolster was matched to Marauder gear.

    the stumbling block seems to be within Trion, as at some point someone with the authority to swing things his way decided to set the upper bolster higher than Dreambreaker. this had to have been a last minute thing, as the 3.0 patch notes state that the upper bolster is equal to what is attainable in pvp.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    I tend to agree with this.

    of all the PvP "issues" that need to be addressed, this seems to be the easiest for Trion. simply match the upper bolster with the Dreambreaker gear, the same as the lower bolster was matched to Marauder gear.

    the stumbling block seems to be within Trion, as at some point someone with the authority to swing things his way decided to set the upper bolster higher than Dreambreaker. this had to have been a last minute thing, as the 3.0 patch notes state that the upper bolster is equal to what is attainable in pvp.
    I think you are spot on - it's also how I read the original 3.0 patch notes where Trion talks about downbolstering.

  15. #45
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    Default The issue is

    There are many well thought out ideas, suggestions, summaries of the issues. This thread and others are replete with them.

    1) Down bolster raid gear to match BIS Dreambreaker
    2) Repeatable dailies for PVP based on kills damage healing etc
    3) Limit weeklies and double the rewards so PVE players are not forced to PVP to progress
    (This would take a huge bite out of the plague of afkers / semi afkers / etc)
    4) Reasonable Upgrade costs for PVP upgrade paths
    5) A means to kick / block / punish / shame afkers as they are negatively impacting the enjoyment of everyone else on their team

    All these ideas have been floating around for months. None of these ideas in any way impact the FOTM portion of the player base ie the raiding community.

    Trion has been very busy on other revenue generating parts of the game ... ie minion and wardrobes. Clearly the calculation is that the small amount of time to make any of these PVP adjsutments is not worth it.

    For months Trion has refused to even comment on the PVP issues. Therefore we can assume nothing will change.

    It is that simple I suggest that the few remaining players that enjoy pvp take a moment to think about the fact that NONE of these issues have been even mentioned and then see if you still find the game enjoyable. If you do then just assume this is what it is and carry on .. if you dont then there is an entire universe of games to choose from.

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