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Thread: Suggestions for restructuring of PvP Weekly rewards for a better PvP experience.

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    Champion Nuitaran's Avatar
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    Default Suggestions for restructuring of PvP Weekly rewards for a better PvP experience.

    I think it's safe to say that most of the folks reading here participate in PvP for the enjoyment of it, not for the rewards. Many (if not all) of us would likely still PvP even if there were NO rewards. It's no secret that with the recent gear unification, it has brought in new players to PvP. Many (if not most) of these players have NO desire whatsoever to be there, they just want to maximize their weekly currency gain and they feel "forced" into PvP to do it. We PvPers are competitive players. We are in it to play hard, compete, and win. Folks that feel forced into it are not. They are there to get it done as painlessly as possible and move on. This disparity in ideals creates a miserable experience for both them, and the PvPers. They resent us pushing them to compete, we resent them putting in what we see as sub par effort. This is even further exacerbated by AFKers, which I think we can all agree has gotten worse by leaps and bounds since unification. With what we also know about how ELO and matchmaking works, we know that the matchmaker puts highly skilled players with less skilled players in order to balance ELO between teams, this mixes skill levels within games and makes for a frustrating experience for both ends of the spectrum.

    I brought this information up to Ocho and Daglar in a PM a few weeks ago, and Ocho and I had a brief correspondence. The first thing I noticed is that Ocho seemed genuinely surprised that anyone felt this way. I'm not sure how that is since anyone who reads more than 15 minutes in this section can see us all lamenting these things over and over again, but it is what it is. The second thing that caught my attention was when he mentioned that he felt there wasn't any good way of restructuring the reward system to make a better experience short of nerfing the rewards given. This absolutely blew my mind. Through these threads there are literally DOZENS of suggestions on how to adjust the weekly/daily reward system so that people are encouraged to try other areas of the game, but don't feel forced into completing them even if they don't enjoy them. I brought up a few of the suggestions that people have made, he said he would pass them along to the team. I guess that's a start.

    I would like to accomplish two things with this thread. First off, I want to see anyone who agrees with the assessments in the first paragraph chime in to support. The team needs to see exactly how many of us feel that the people who feel forced to participate are making it a negative experience for the people who WANT to participate as well. The whole thing creates a toxic environment that isn't fun. Second, I want to see all those suggestions on how to restructure the rewards system consolidated here. Nefelia and Kronos have both had several ideas, as well as others. Lets get all of them here so the team can see them in one place.

    Lets keep this on topic and for suggestions about the specific issue stated here. I think we can all agree that this is probably the single biggest issue that PvP suffers from at the current time. Lets focus this thread on removing the toxicity from the environment and then we can approach the other issues from there.
    KABOOM!

  2. #2
    Plane Touched Fusscle's Avatar
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    I think the problem keeps coming back to PVE progression.

    PVPers like me would be happy with some small progression to keep us playing, but that doesn't work when our progression gets bypassed by raid progression. Raids need to build in enough progression to gate the content, you can't really get around that.

    I'd suggest leaving the downbolster where it is, and give pvpers one more small upgrade with t2 content, this small upgrade would be designed to be bis inside bolstered areas and would be the best possible unbolstered item, and must come from upgraded marauder items.

    Even if the point of the gear unification is to allow/encourage players to participate in more of the content eventually you have to put a final cap on something. There's no point in having pvpers raid ready for T3 if they haven't progressed through the T1 and T2 raids anyways.
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    Champion Nuitaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fusscle View Post
    I think the problem keeps coming back to PVE progression.

    PVPers like me would be happy with some small progression to keep us playing, but that doesn't work when our progression gets bypassed by raid progression. Raids need to build in enough progression to gate the content, you can't really get around that.

    I'd suggest leaving the downbolster where it is, and give pvpers one more small upgrade with t2 content, this small upgrade would be designed to be bis inside bolstered areas and would be the best possible unbolstered item, and must come from upgraded marauder items.

    Even if the point of the gear unification is to allow/encourage players to participate in more of the content eventually you have to put a final cap on something. There's no point in having pvpers raid ready for T3 if they haven't progressed through the T1 and T2 raids anyways.
    This is less about progression balance and more about getting the afkers and folks who don't even try, don't want to be there, (sometimes known as leechers) out of warfronts to make a more fun and more competitive environment for everyone.

    I mean, we get that Trion wants everyone to experience all the activities but when it reaches the point where people do something they hate doing just for the marks, and that has a negative impact on the people that WANT to be there, something has to give. We are now beyond that point.
    Last edited by Nuitaran; 04-10-2015 at 11:15 AM.
    KABOOM!

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    Rift Disciple lightningpaw's Avatar
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    PvE'ers input but I think i might have something relevant to add.

    "Wanting us to see all the content" is terrible, one-sided logic that makes no sense on Trion's part. Even serious, yet not hardcore, PvE'ers don't "see all content" because Trion continues to release overtuned content. We end up with things like PvE'ers in PvP because of the players within the 99% who regardless strive to maximize their weekly progression. The fact that you can't cap on currency without clearing most of the current raid tier is a major flaw that is at least part of why "cross pollination" of the two incompatible player subsets happens. The only way that PvP-oriented players would be able to reliably "cross over" into endgame PvE would be if they implemented LFR (no loot, maybe 50% marks) but since that will never happen under the game's current administration, "seeing all content" is not a valid excuse for anything as it is unreasonable for PvP-focused players to do so.

    When I left That Other MMO a couple years ago, you could cap on raid currency without much effort and without ever setting foot in a PvP environment. Anything you bought with this currency (or got from a raid for that matter) was worthless in PvP. PvP gear, likewise, was from its own set of tokens, and then you also had rated PvP as the true endgame for PvPer's. The only time you got crossover of players from one field to the other is if it was willful (that problem was dealt with several expansions ago). There simply wasn't any reason for a raider or casual PvE'er to do a Battleground or Arena if they did not want to. While the game has its critics, it's successful because of the way it handles player issues and as such it should be apparent that RIFT has made a huge mistake by trying to integrate two incompatible play styles around gear.

    Without resorting to significant changes, they could rework the way currencies are distributed entirely. Get rid of weekly top-tier rewards, but adjust dungeon/WF completion rewards and make them either per-boss or no longer charge-driven. 20-30 dungeons / WFs per week could then be the level at which you would cap on top-tier currency, and this would greatly reduce the desire for anybody to slack off or AFK their way through anything. Raiders would still be able to cap on full clears, plus they would keep their PVE advantage through raid loot drops including relics. This would probably also translate to alt-friendliness. Even in fresh-tier progression setups, they'd be able to obliterate NTEs until capped, and wouldn't have to jump in and overpower a WF group. PvPer's would be able to play WFs and feel like they're getting somewhere each week instead of just hoping for RNG to be kind. 5-man Instance PvE would also be unnecessary for PvP'ers. 99%'er PvE'ers would still have to work a bit to hit the cap but they could limit that to PvE activity and not have to impose upon PvP'ers. Of course, all of this is unlikely to happen because it goes completely against "we want you to do/see/experience everything, even if unwilling or unsuccessful."

    No matter how you look at it though, Trion blew it with 3.0 in many ways. The reward system has undoubtedly been the reason why many players in my guild have up and left the game. While what I suggested above might slightly increase the rate at which content is consumed, maybe a shorter 3.x cycle is not a bad thing since I am sure there are PvE'ers and PvP'ers alike that would welcome an early 4.0 if it means going back to the SL system or otherwise undoing the damage that gear unification has done.
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  5. #5
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuitaran View Post
    I think it's safe to say that most of the folks reading here participate in PvP for the enjoyment of it, not for the rewards. Many (if not all) of us would likely still PvP even if there were NO rewards. It's no secret that with the recent gear unification, it has brought in new players to PvP. Many (if not most) of these players have NO desire whatsoever to be there, they just want to maximize their weekly currency gain and they feel "forced" into PvP to do it.
    Couple of things;

    I don't log in for a new societal pecking order, I don't log in to compare clothes.

    I do log in for a challenge.

    With the above out of the way there is only one way to make a 'competitive' PvP environment and that is to start off in BiS gear and sink down, all the way down to naked, through winning.

    As it is the 'competitive edge' doesn't show an increased proficiency in PvP, it shows 'time-served' due to intense periods of trading during many many matches.

    It's just as likely that the afk'rs want to ditch their warfront team to shake off the burden of having to lead newbs and collect marks later.

    We are agreed that the marks are the maypole that everyone dances around, as they need FoH and ACM for their adventures whether pvp or pve.

    We've currently got some longstanding members of the community that have managed to successfully level all 4 callings and, as such, can capitalise on new FotM builds whether it be the rogue healer (sure sure cry paywall to win, it looks pretty effective and most of us would chip a couple of credits towards THAT pack, it's low on my priorities behind the minion system and other parts of the whole services package atm or I would indeed have that soul), reaver or dom.

    Either way you look at it, every specialist has a suitability factor, and some are more suitable to general pvp than others (inquisitor is good in blighted AC, Codex, BG, anywhere - whereas Bard is only truely useful in bottlenecked arenas like BG, at a push Karthan)

    Not subtracting anything from those that want to be there but; there is a worrying trend of assuming that crafted 65 gear should be enough.

    It isn't.

    Most of us have played games where you find things a doddle and then you hit that plateau where it seems impossible, and gear comparisons show that the cap reflex of the s-curve of stat prorgession is slightly borked such that 3 month raid vet in BiS can roflstomp pugs.

    What is overt in RIFT is the necessity to invest 'time farming tokens'.

    One of my characters has 5 pieces of PvP gear that I want and 3 of them lack the required ACM *and* favour tokens to upgrade, Whitefall Steppes managed to score 10k favour in a win.

    It takes a lot of time to 'catch up' to the current elites.

    The ELO compromise of putting 1st day explorers paired up with 3 month vets that need to fall back into the ladder system, somehow, makes the situation whereby people appear to be offering sub-par performances.

    I couldn't work out why my warrior alt with no debuffs and 20% mitigation was taking 1.5 times the physical damage (with the warriors ELO) compared to my rogue with 18.5% that pvp's all the time, from another players ranger rogue.

    It didn't help much when I left that match, reopened the queues with K and found I was still in some invisible group preventing me from joining, which caused my client to crash when I started to film it 3 mins later losing my footage.
    Last edited by Debilitato; 04-10-2015 at 12:36 PM.

  6. #6
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuitaran View Post
    I would like to accomplish two things with this thread. First off, I want to see anyone who agrees with the assessments in the first paragraph chime in to support. The team needs to see exactly how many of us feel that the people who feel forced to participate are making it a negative experience for the people who WANT to participate as well. The whole thing creates a toxic environment that isn't fun. Second, I want to see all those suggestions on how to restructure the rewards system consolidated here. Nefelia and Kronos have both had several ideas, as well as others. Lets get all of them here so the team can see them in one place.
    I give my full support to your first paragraph and have been stating exactly the same thing over and over again. to little point, it seems. :/

    I don't think restructuring the reward system would help, or should even be desired by those who enjoy pvp.
    it is my belief that we now need those extra players in the queue. there are simply too few "pvpers" left.

    what does need restructuring is the queue system. it isn't so much the presence of the resentful players in the queue, as the mixing of those players into every team.

    I've made various analogies comparing real world sports teams to rift pvp. lets try swimming (relay) races.

    if Olympic swimming relay teams were to use Rifts queue system, Team USA would have Michael Phelps heading up one team, with 3 toddlers wearing floaties making up the rest of the team.
    meanwhile, Team Canada would be comprised of a "premade" of junior high school swim team swimmers, while Team Australia would be a salt water crocodile, two bull sharks and a platypus.

    does this in anyway seem like it would be successful race?

    P.S. don't put your money on team Australia in that scenario. Sure, they are all great swimmers (pvpers), but do you think they'll show any interest in the objectives?
    Last edited by Kronos v; 04-10-2015 at 02:03 PM.

  7. #7
    General of Telara littlepoit's Avatar
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    I think it's safe to say that most of the folks reading here participate in PvP for the enjoyment of it, not for the rewards
    you hint the solution in your first sentence : no rewards in pvp and normalized gear = no reason to set foot in pvp unless you enjoy it.
    problem : it doesn't generate revenue streams for trion.

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    The warfronts are currently a mix of those who want to compete (be it winning the match, going on killing sprees, or just topping the scoreboard) and those who don't want to be there but feel pressured (either by themselves or others) to get the marks rewarded by the Weekly PvP Quests and the Daily Warfront Charges. It has definitely resulted in resentment from PvP players towards those pvE players who show up to be carried.

    There is the expectation among many that you can AFK your way to success in warfronts. And as much as that claim ruffles my feathers, there is a large amount of people that enter warfronts hoping to AFK to a victory, some of whom quit the warfront to try their luck again later. What does the 15 minute Ascended Disgrace debuff matter to someone who doesn't want to play PvP in the first place?

    This 'AFK to success' attitude is solely the responsibility of Trion. Trion has set the reward system in such a way that no individual achievements need be met in order to reap the rewards. One can not AFK their way through NTEs without being quickly identified and booted from the team. To successfully accomplish NTEs, one must put forth a significant amount of effort, research, and learning in order to complete the content. However, in warfronts there is simply no way to easily identify or remove the AFKers. Nor is there any need for one to do more than stealth in a corner and occasionally hit a button in order to reap the rewards of a win brought to them by the efforts of their team mates.

    This needs to change. And here are some of the changes that should happen:

    1) Reward effort. Create a variety of Repeatable PvP Quests that would reward players based on some benchmarks achieved in certain warfronts. For instance:

    Warfront Specific

    * Codex:
    - achieve a total of 5 million damage and/or healing
    - capture/defend a total of 10 flags
    - achieve 10 killing blows and/or saves

    * Whitefall:
    - achieve a total of 10 million damage and/or healing
    - capture/steal a total of 5 stones
    - achieve 15 killing blows and/or saves

    * etc

    General (overlaps with warfront specific quests)

    *Killing Machine:
    - achieve a total of 25 million damage
    - achieve a total of 50 killing blows

    *Exalted Savior:
    - achieve a total of 25 million in total healing
    - achieve a total of 25 saves

    *Battlefield Manipulator:
    - place enemy ascended under a crowd control effect for a total of 200 times

    *Specialist:
    - capture/defend an objective 100 times

    These quests would reward the player:
    - 240000 experience points
    - 2.5 platinum
    - 100 Abyssal Crusader Marks
    - 15 Fragments of Horror

    Rewarding individual accomplishments will encourage players to keep attacking the enemy, keep healing allies, and keep going for the objectives, even when the loss appears inevitable. AFKing would no longer be a productive activity, and those who engage in this behaviour would either adapt to the new system and learn to contribute or stop queueing. Either way, the result would be better matches, given that according to Ocho the bulk of the lopsided matches are caused by AFKers/quitters.

    Why Repeatable? Firstly, this is to allow people to finish the quests on their own time - reducing the pressure and allowing the player to enjoy himself, secure in the knowledge that he is progressing without having to stress over a deadline. Also, it would allow the more accomplished PvPers to be rewarded at a moderately faster pace (especially given the lack of PvP end-game).



    2) Change the Daily Warfront Charge:

    The Daily Warfront Charge as it currently is allows players to AFK/quit until they succeed by luck. This is an enormous design flaw that has resulted in a plague of indifferent participants in the warfronts, and subsequently deeply frustrated PvP veterans that are forced to carry these leeches.

    The Daily Warfront Charge should be changed to reward the player if the player can:
    - achieve over 1 million damage and/or healing and at least 5 killing blows and/or saves in a single warfront. (Edit: or perhaps just a cumulative total of 1 million damage and 5 KBs if Trion is not willing to set the bar too high for achieving daily warfront charges

    This would require all players to put in some serious effort to achieve the daily, just as is the case for NTE dailies.



    3) Change the Weeklies:

    *Guns for Hire:
    - Complete a total of 7 different PvP Repeatable Quests

    *Carnage: Ascended
    (remains as-is) Edit: or perhaps change this to meeting a certain quota of favour gained; as favour is largely a product of individual contribution to the match - correct me if I am wrong on this - players would have to actually participate to maximize their favour gains. Of course, favour vials would give some people a leg up, but that bonus would still rely on participation, which is an improvement over the current AFK-friendly state of the Weekly. Also, potential cash cow for Trion, woot!

    Guns for Hire and Carnage: Ascended currently shares the flaw of the current Daily Warfront Charges: it allows players to AFK their way to success. These changes would complement the introduction of repeatable quests and further reinforce the need for participants in warfronts to work on their individual contributions towards the win.
    Last edited by Nefelia; 05-05-2015 at 06:15 AM.

  9. #9
    Champion Nuitaran's Avatar
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    All of that makes WAY too much sense. I'm afraid you're going to have to be executed.
    KABOOM!

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    General of Telara littlepoit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nefelia View Post
    snip.
    i admire the thought put into this but the way i read it as a PvE player:

    "now PvP becomes an even greater source of rewards but to get those i have to put way more efforts into something i hate."
    people afk for a reason the most likely one being they hate the content.

    separation of PvE and PvP progression worked... the current situation doesn't.
    Last edited by littlepoit; 04-11-2015 at 12:37 PM.

  11. #11
    Champion Nuitaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlepoit View Post
    i admire the thought put into this but the way i read it as a PvE player:

    "now PvP becomes an even greater source of rewards but to get those i have to put way more efforts into something i hate."
    people afk for a reason the most likely one being they hate the content.

    separation of PvE and PvP progression worked... the current situation doesn't.
    If the choice has to be between people hating to be there, but having to put forth effort and actually accomplish something, and people hating to be there and being able to afk their way through I will take the former all day long.
    KABOOM!

  12. #12
    General of Telara littlepoit's Avatar
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    why force them into something they hate in the first place ?

  13. #13
    Telaran Blackace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlepoit View Post
    why force them into something they hate in the first place ?
    This!!! Problem is, if you're a pve'er from a less progessed guild or even at the beginning of a tier, you have to do PvP to max your marks. This simply results in boring PvP matches, because most of the people just don't want to be there, and they're here only for the marks. I am what some of you would call a PvE'er, but I enjoy PvP when I play with likely minded people. Sadly, the LFG system often pair me with new/clueless people. I think how the LFG system should be fixed is by matching people of equal skill together, not trying to "balance" the ELO across the team, which often results in 2-3 good players with a full team of bads. I wouldn't mind a longer queue time for better matchmaking. It should also consider past warfronts killing blows/damage done/healing done

    TL;DR Good with good, bads with bads. Everyone is happy.
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    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlepoit View Post
    why force them into something they hate in the first place ?
    that is a question that should be directed towards trion, and goes both ways.
    this is what 3.0 did. it forced players into things they didn't want to do.

  15. #15
    Ascendant Rheven's Avatar
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    I mostly PvP cause it's fun. Well, at least part of the time anyways. I don't raid. Any interest I might have had got beat outta me in 2.0 when PvPers and our gear were treated like crap and couldn't even get in a raid with our hard-won gear. I agree about the marauder gear. I just runebroke about ten duplicates and yet I can't get much upgraded because it takes so much stuff. On that subject I noticed today the weekly quest for Conquest, winning one match is rewarded the same as PvP for winning either 7 or 9 matches? What's that about?

    I'm glad most people PvP for fun cause there is sure no other reason for it.
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