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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: How ELO Works in RIFT

  1. #31
    Plane Walker
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    So the moral of the story is:

    Play Dom and throw every match you don't need for your weekly.

  2. #32
    Plane Touched
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    Don't bring me down with this thread, Mr. Blue Sky. I might turn to stone!

  3. #33
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    So basically Rift ELO is not a tool for matching teams of similarly skilled players together to ensure fun and competitive play. Instead it's a tool for penalizing skill by matching good players with increasingly bad players until he can no longer carry them to victory more than half the time. So the better you play the worse pvp becomes until you can't be bothered with it anymore.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    So basically Rift ELO is not a tool for matching teams of similarly skilled players together to ensure fun and competitive play. Instead it's a tool for penalizing skill by matching good players with increasingly bad players until he can no longer carry them to victory more than half the time. So the better you play the worse pvp becomes until you can't be bothered with it anymore.
    Basically yes with some unknown form of supposed heal matching attempt mixed in. Also premades are somehow able to continue raising elo into crazy high numbers despite beating mainly pugs. In most game elo tops out around 2500-3000 due to competition . But somehow in rift people are getting to 4K + lol. I don't even know how that's possible unless they aren't really even using an elo system
    Last edited by Definitleynottechfall; 04-07-2015 at 06:40 AM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Definitleynottechfall View Post
    Basically yes with some unknown form of supposed heal matching attempt mixed in. Also premades are somehow able to continue raising elo into crazy high numbers despite beating mainly pugs. In most game elo tops out around 2500-3000 due to competition . But somehow in rift people are getting to 4K + lol


    I have much more than 4 k and I did 5er maybe 4-5 times since I came back. So its not about pres. Except if you count duo queue to premade.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheo View Post
    I have much more than 4 k and I did 5er maybe 4-5 times since I came back. So its not about pres. Except if you count duo queue to premade.
    regardless in a normal ELO system ratings above 3k are virtually unheard of or only very small % of elite players. But the way this system works is with team average. so if you have 5k ELO, and get paired with a bunch of noobs your "effective" ELO is like 2k and other team is also assumed to be around 2K so if you win you gain a lot of points for beating an "equal" team and continue to gain points to ridiculous high ELO. Which then, in order to balance will start to pair you with lower and lower rated players to maintain equal team averages.

    So like Gery said, in an actual good functional system, the higher your ELO the higher the rating of the players on your team and the opposing team, to the point where you are around 50/50 win loss and your ELO tops out around 2.5-3k if you are good.

    i don't know how they do it in Rift but it sounds broken. If you are ELO 4k and get put on a team with avg ELO of 2k you should gain basically no points for winning
    Last edited by Definitleynottechfall; 04-07-2015 at 06:58 AM.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xirxe View Post
    an ELO based on player performance only works when all in your wf would have similar ELO ratings. as soon as you mix good and bad players, the better a good player gets, the worse his team will be. it would be bad to be a good player. ;)
    I don't think this is likely to happen, as if every player has an individual ELO rating, the system would be able to fill the WFs pretty evenly, preventing good players to end in bad groups. In principle, ELO works, the problem imo is the current implementation of the system, it does not take enough variables into account, thus resulting good players to end up in bad or very bad teams, i.e. the current implementation is punishing good players by putting them into bad teams, whereas a correct implementation of the system would put a good player in a team that has a total ELO rating similar to the opposing team, balancing out both teams. Either way, gear has to be taking into consideration, too. It might not say much or anything at all about the skill of a player, but gear certainly says a lot about the potential dps/hps a player can do.

    Either way, the current system needs tweaking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheo
    If 5ers would put strictly against other 5er, that will reduce 5er amount drastically. We already had it and this is my experience from old/previous system when Vanen did a lot 5er. Other 5ers disbanded after the first loose, and we had 30-40 min waiting time.
    Yeah, I so hated those days ... always having to wait sometimes an hour for a queue to pop up ... -.-
    Last edited by Fia; 04-07-2015 at 07:10 AM.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fia View Post
    I don't think this is likely to happen
    we KNOW it's happening based on ELOs of 4k+ otherwise it's impossible to obtain such high rating in a normal ELO system as far as I know or have ever seen in other games or formats that use ELO (chess, GW2, WoW, etc.)
    Last edited by Definitleynottechfall; 04-07-2015 at 07:09 AM.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Definitleynottechfall View Post
    we KNOW it's happening based on ELOs of 4k+ otherwise it's impossible to obtain such high rating in a normal ELO system as far as I know or have ever seen in other games or formats that use ELO (chess, GW2, WoW, etc.)
    No you don't know and you can't know, as the current ELO system, as I have stated, does not use enough variables to calculate the proper individual rating (at least from what Ocho was saying).
    Last edited by Fia; 04-07-2015 at 07:13 AM.
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  10. #40
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    Or let me rephrase that:

    The error Trion is currently doing is that they are not using the ELO system as described in the wikipedia article. The problem is, that Trion apparently does not normalize each player individually (based on variables like gear, etc.) and does not apply this normalization factor to the ELO rating, which results in the current implementation only calculating ELO based on wins/losses, which then again results in players with high ELO ratings to be put into bad groups.
    Last edited by Fia; 04-07-2015 at 07:25 AM.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fia View Post
    Or let me rephrase that:

    The error Trion is currently doing is not using the ELO system as described in the wikipedia article. The problem with this is, that Trion apparently does NOT normalize each player individually (based on variables like gear, etc.) and applying this factor to the ELO rating, which resulted in the current implementation only calculating ELO based on wins/losses, which then again results in players with high ELO ratings to be put into bad groups.
    that's all im saying, is we know that good players are being paired with bad players, which goes against the very reason you use an ELO system
    Last edited by Definitleynottechfall; 04-07-2015 at 07:23 AM.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Definitleynottechfall View Post
    that's all im saying, is we know that good players are being paired with bad players, which goes against the very reason you use an ELO system
    Was about to add an addendum. :P

    Yeah I just noticed, it depends on what you want to do. If you want to pair up high ratings with high ratings, then yes, you are (of course) right. I was thinking more of having WF of similar total ratings, meaning good players would be put together with bad players, but overall both teams would be about equal in "skill". The reason that I do not want to have high ratings vs high ratings are the long queue times. Or to avoid long queue times, the system could at least try to pair high rated players vs high rated players and if there are not enough players available, then to fill up with lower rated players (depending on a certain rating threshold).
    Last edited by Fia; 04-07-2015 at 07:31 AM.
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  13.   This is the last Rift Team post in this thread.   #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nefelia View Post
    That certainly explains why the matchmaking is so unreliable. ELO is not a reflection of player skill. Instead, it is a measure of luck, time spent on a good PM, and a very small measure of a player's ability to pull of a win despite being teamed with potatoes.
    That's only true with a very small sample size of matches. Over time, wins are the most telling statistic as outlined above.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShayolGhul88 View Post
    Nice explanation but taking this into consideration I que solo 99% of the time and yesterday I literally was on the losing team about 10 WFs and mostly being dominated haha.
    You can get in a bad streak, and that's never much fun. That's true of any team competition however. One thing that writeup above doesn't mention is that after the above calculations, the matchmaker will try to balance people on losing streaks between the two teams. That means that half the folks on losing streaks will get their streak snapped in any given match. Short streaks, even 10, are still possible. But we do try to make it as unlikely as we can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zerosum View Post
    Until you make a seperate PM and solo queue, it's a joke that devs cannot grasp this. Because that's how arena games work.... take a random team of 5 vs another full team and see how that works based on a useless W/L ratio.
    As detailed above, Premades are less a predictor than ELO. Or to put it another way, if you take 5 highly ranked PUG players on a single team, they're more likely to win compared to 5 players coordinated in a premade with just good ELO ratings.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    [..snip..] Short streaks, even 10, are still possible. [..snip..]
    Funny that 10 losses in a row is a "short" losing streak to you.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    when the rest of the team is a field of potatoes, they will get farmed.
    LOL! That's a keeper!!
    Last edited by SmidgePlays; 04-07-2015 at 12:13 PM.
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