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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Aspects of PvP that could do with alteration.

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    Ascendant V1rul3n7's Avatar
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    Default Aspects of PvP that could do with alteration.

    Hello everyone,

    Basically this thread is just a short post which I would like to be kept on topic, and open for a good duration even if trolls somehow derail it to examine the underlying mechanics of PvP in Rift.

    As a general guideline, I would like to avoid discussion of such elements as raw damage output and instead prefer to concentrate on more basic universal elements that affect all the callings equally.

    For the first example, here is a suggestion I have:

    Amending the nature of debuffs applied in PvP, most noticably, bleed effects.

    Since the redesign of Reaver and the introduction of masteries, a large amount of bleed effects are now present in the game, abilities such as barbed shot, building rage (and other calling variants) can all be applied at range, an issue which I think is very destructive to the core nature of melee class design.

    For instance, take warlock and reaver, both very similar roles with a very similar pvp function, similar damage/durability and very similar control utility, the key difference being that one is cleansable and the other is "partly" cleansable.

    My suggestion is not simply "make warlock dots uncleansable" because that defeats the point of actually cleansing within the game (a mechanic which has gradually declined in functionality and usefulness since the implementation of physician and liberator), my suggestion is simply this;

    All ranged attacks, regardless of DoT effects or type (i.e fire/physical/lightning) should be purple debuffs and cleansable, along with building rage stacks and other such passively applied bleeds that function at range.

    Bleeds should basically be the exclusive function of melee classes, and only able to be applied in direct melee contact via direct melee.

    In a sense, what I hope that this would accomplish would be to improve the role of melee classes across the callings, by allowing them to be the exclusive "uncleansable healing debuff" applicators.

    So basically a restructuring of bleed damage and application across all the callings.

    Secondly, power drains;
    Ever since the addition of liberator and physician the power to heal has been very much in their hands, both in an unlimited source of energy and in terms of raw healing output, suffice to say that the issue of power costs (and just as important mana costs) across all abilities is not particularly very well tuned, more powerful abilities should cost more - universally - and counters such as debilitating dart, mana wrench, etc should all be taken into consideration.

    My reasoning is simply this, the game right now in terms of pvp has become a very green bar goes up green bar goes down game, the alternate aspect of ability cost has become barely none existent while a large amount of abilities in the game exist to simply counter any such costs, costs across the souls are also very un-even, with some souls having huge mana/power costs and others having next to none, this is something that I believe and have believed for a very long time that needs to be addressed.

    Naturally stacking abilities (such as multiple dominators etc) could prove to be annoying, but the solution is fairly simple.

    Make the COST to increase another players COST.. COSTLY.

    For example, If I use transference on a warrior, sure his power bar has gone, he could be in trouble, but damn did that cost me a lot of energy.

    If im mana wrenching, the cost to wrench my target should be almost equally as taxing on myself (if not for the returns gained through wrenching)

    Likewise, if DPS classes have more cost universal, equal in respect of healers/support then each activity becomes just as challenging, and more engaging and thought provoking.

    Pyromancers should need to think "is it right for me to use fulminate now and burn my mana"

    Inquisitors should think "should i open with aggressive inquisition?"

    Players should be required to think about the consequences of when an ability is used in terms of the effective cost to their character just as much as a sentinel does when he has to consider whether to crucial or subtle.

    In a sense, this should theoretically reduce overall burst in the game, restricting both mana and melee classes from playing recklessly, and at the same time open more space for opportunities to contribute to a battle without simply running up to a person and "spam 4 till dead"

    or

    "i hit this button immediately, cause its off cd"

    Another aspect is purging, and the overall function and role of cleanses.

    Anyway, just a few suggestions, troll away ;)
    -=[ Virulent - 65 - P100 | Harlakk - 65 - P100 | Ascaroth - 62 - P95 | Brahman - 65 - P92 ]=-
    -=[ VirulentX - 70 - P100 | Harlakk - 70 - P92 | Ascaroth - 60 - P10 | BrahmanX - 1 - P0 ]=-
    | VIRALIST: 65 |

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    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    reaver is missing the "durability" from your damage/durability thing. what is the "control utility" you are talking about? the 2 second thing on the interrupt?
    the issue with reaver dots and cleansing is that reaver dots are required for the reaver burst. no dots, no burst. when you cleanse off the dots, you are also cleansing off the burst that hasn't happened yet. the dots themselves aren't the source of the damage that reaver does, but rather empower it.
    try to step outside your rogue assassin bias. reaver dots are different.

    I do agree that mana/energy drains need to be a thing again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

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    Ascendant V1rul3n7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    reaver is missing the "durability" from your damage/durability thing. what is the "control utility" you are talking about? the 2 second thing on the interrupt?
    the issue with reaver dots and cleansing is that reaver dots are required for the reaver burst. no dots, no burst. when you cleanse off the dots, you are also cleansing off the burst that hasn't happened yet. the dots themselves aren't the source of the damage that reaver does, but rather empower it.
    try to step outside your rogue assassin bias. reaver dots are different.

    I do agree that mana/energy drains need to be a thing again.
    It was a simple comparison, surprisingly enough dots function pretty much the same for every class not just reaver.

    Difference is, other classes dots are cleansable!

    Anyway, the topic isnt really about "just reaver" hence why I mentioned barbed shot and building rage too. It's simply about converting bleeds to melee only effects.

    I mean if you want to go along your line of thinking i could mention rending slash stacks from harbinger, please explain to me why those are cleansable. :P

    Sticking on point though im looking at actual mechanics, bleeds, purges, energy drains, mostly universtal stuff.
    -=[ Virulent - 65 - P100 | Harlakk - 65 - P100 | Ascaroth - 62 - P95 | Brahman - 65 - P92 ]=-
    -=[ VirulentX - 70 - P100 | Harlakk - 70 - P92 | Ascaroth - 60 - P10 | BrahmanX - 1 - P0 ]=-
    | VIRALIST: 65 |

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    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by V1rul3n7 View Post
    I mean if you want to go along your line of thinking i could mention rending slash stacks from harbinger, please explain to me why those are cleansable. :P
    because rending slash has a max stack of three, providing a maximum of a 9% damage buff, and is spammable (no CD - unlike reaver dots). it is icing, but its not the cake.

    whereas every reaver damaging ability is buffed by a minimum of 25% per reaver dot, some by as much as 45% per reaver dot. the trade off is they hit like a sloppy kiss from your great aunt Mavis when there are no dots to empower them.

    viral stream, infestation, explosive infestation, dire blow, desecrating blow, rancid cleave, ravaging strike all require dots to do any meaningful damage, all are significantly weakened with just a couple of dots cleansed off (2 dots removed = a 90% damage buff gone from infestations!). all are completely harmless if the target has no reaver dots at all.

    reaver exists on a knife edge. if it is completely un-cleansable, its a monster. if its totally cleansable, its pointless.
    making all reaver dots cleansable wont just nerf it in pvp, it will remove the soul completely from the very very short list of warrior pvp viable souls.

    the damage that the reaver dots do themselves is insignificant. it is what they do to other reaver abilities that make them important and entirely central to the reavers viability.

    assassin, on the other hand, the dots empower.... nothing...
    well, would you look at that, the dots work different for assassin and reaver...

    maybe you need to spend a bit more time looking at the mechanics of the souls you're calling for the changes too, not just the vague idea of certain kinds abilities in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by V1rul3n7 View Post
    Hello everyone,
    Basically this thread is just a short post which I would like to be kept on topic, and open for a good duration even if trolls somehow derail it to examine the underlying mechanics of PvP in Rift.

    As a general guideline, I would like to avoid discussion of such elements as raw damage output and instead prefer to concentrate on more basic universal elements that affect all the callings equally.

    Can't help but see a slight contradiction of thoughts here.....but who knows! Allow to me hopefully not derail your thread.

    So....yeh I would disable cleanses entirely in PVP (relevant to your post). I'd Give more souls the healing debuff abilities of the reaver. Then I'd reduce Reduce PVP penalty to damage slightly, maybe 2-3%. Heck I might even increase respawn timer 20 seconds for good measure, and then call it a day.

    Fixes all the TTK problems for the average player, and average team, which is a bit high IMO.

    These are the aspects of Rift PVP that I would consider altering......

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    Plane Touched zasen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    reaver is missing the "durability" from your damage/durability thing. what is the "control utility" you are talking about? the 2 second thing on the interrupt?
    the issue with reaver dots and cleansing is that reaver dots are required for the reaver burst. no dots, no burst. when you cleanse off the dots, you are also cleansing off the burst that hasn't happened yet. the dots themselves aren't the source of the damage that reaver does, but rather empower it.
    try to step outside your rogue assassin bias. reaver dots are different.

    I do agree that mana/energy drains need to be a thing again.
    myabe you should take our own advice reaver can pick up 20 percent damage reduction but im guessing through your own bias u dont consider this part of its durabilty

    hey guess what warlock also needs its dots to set up its burst guess we gotta give it uncleaseable dots too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    because rending slash has a max stack of three, providing a maximum of a 9% damage buff, and is spammable (no CD - unlike reaver dots). it is icing, but its not the cake.

    whereas every reaver damaging ability is buffed by a minimum of 25% per reaver dot, some by as much as 45% per reaver dot. the trade off is they hit like a sloppy kiss from your great aunt Mavis when there are no dots to empower them.

    viral stream, infestation, explosive infestation, dire blow, desecrating blow, rancid cleave, ravaging strike all require dots to do any meaningful damage, all are significantly weakened with just a couple of dots cleansed off (2 dots removed = a 90% damage buff gone from infestations!). all are completely harmless if the target has no reaver dots at all.

    reaver exists on a knife edge. if it is completely un-cleansable, its a monster. if its totally cleansable, its pointless.
    making all reaver dots cleansable wont just nerf it in pvp, it will remove the soul completely from the very very short list of warrior pvp viable souls.

    the damage that the reaver dots do themselves is insignificant. it is what they do to other reaver abilities that make them important and entirely central to the reavers viability.

    assassin, on the other hand, the dots empower.... nothing...
    well, would you look at that, the dots work different for assassin and reaver...

    maybe you need to spend a bit more time looking at the mechanics of the souls you're calling for the changes too, not just the vague idea of certain kinds abilities in general.
    Infestation hits nearly immediately after you apply your instant dot all. It is 2 sec. Most healing souls are 1.5 sec gcd. Not only that but the only dps class Reaver should have trouble with burst is reavers themselves because they have the single most overpowered cleanse all in the game + their own version of slip away and all in a ranged soul.
    Last edited by Planetx; 03-28-2015 at 01:47 AM.

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    Plane Touched BigTerj's Avatar
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    Wow, a "General PvP" changes thread and it turns into a Reaver hating festival. The only reason Reaver does well is that most people playing PvP suck at cleansing and interrupting. They are all too busy trying to button mash their DPS or Healing rotation to look up and apply a timely cleanse or interrupt. Honestly, setup a Karuulalert for the reaver dots so you know when to cleanse yourself, and learn how to target the person on the other end of the HUGE light beam pointing directly back to the Reaver in question casting Viral Stream. Of you could, you know, LOS the dude. It's hard to cast on someone behind a wall.

    When I face good PvPers they are able to shut down my Reaver DPS because they know what to interrupt and when to cleanse, but most of the time I'm up against keyboard turners that just stare back at me while I hit them with everything I've got and they do nothing but die then come to the forums and demand a Reaver nerf.
    Last edited by BigTerj; 03-28-2015 at 06:40 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    assassin, on the other hand, the dots empower.... nothing...
    well, would you look at that, the dots work different for assassin and reaver...

    maybe you need to spend a bit more time looking at the mechanics of the souls you're calling for the changes too, not just the vague idea of certain kinds abilities in general.
    Not quite true. Sin Final Blow finisher is buffed if the target has impale. Also, rogue mastery causes a damage buff if the target has puncture.

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    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zasen View Post
    hey guess what warlock also needs its dots to set up its burst guess we gotta give it uncleaseable dots too.
    players with no clue how reaver actually works keep trying to bring up warlock as if its a legitimate counter argument.
    it is not.
    warlock and reaver work differently.

    warlock has ONE spell that receives a significant buff (20% per dot) from the warlock dots.
    there is another with a lesser buff - 5% per dot.
    and then a talent to increase a few others by a.. wait for it.. 2% per dot!
    this is in no way comparable to the 25-45% buffs every reaver direct damage ability relies on.

    warlock actually works more in the other direction. direct damage abilities buff the dots more than the dots buff the direct damage abilities.

    in addition, warlock has an ability to cause damage to its targets when they are cleansed. reaver does not.
    warlock can also remove its dots voluntarily from an enemy and then reapply them to another enemy - great for target switching!. reaver cannot do this. reaver relies on plague bringer to ensure potential alternative targets are also dotted (for greatly reduced damage). this requires enemies to be near the initial target, otherwise reaver is gimped.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

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    As much as I agree with the OP when it comes to energy management, in PVE this game is built around spamming stuff as it comes off CD. It's highly unlikely that will change.

    Changing CC is something they could do without messing with the PVE system. Removing a big portion of the ranged CC from RDPS souls would be an improvement. Let the melee be the main lockdown souls. Something like that would add interest to a stale PVP system where everyone plays ranged.

    What they really need is a plan for how pvp should look, and then make all decisions for changes to souls with some basic rules in mind. It seems like very little thought is put into how the souls will play in PVP.
    Fusscle of Cheat Engine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fusscle View Post
    As much as I agree with the OP when it comes to energy management, in PVE this game is built around spamming stuff as it comes off CD. It's highly unlikely that will change.
    Hey I run out of mana sometimes as pyro.... When I'm like 17:0.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusscle View Post
    Changing CC is something they could do without messing with the PVE system. Removing a big portion of the ranged CC from RDPS souls would be an improvement.
    This. One million times this.
    KABOOM!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    players with no clue how reaver actually works keep trying to bring up warlock as if its a legitimate counter argument.
    it is not.
    warlock and reaver work differently.

    warlock has ONE spell that receives a significant buff (20% per dot) from the warlock dots.
    there is another with a lesser buff - 5% per dot.
    and then a talent to increase a few others by a.. wait for it.. 2% per dot!
    this is in no way comparable to the 25-45% buffs every reaver direct damage ability relies on.

    warlock actually works more in the other direction. direct damage abilities buff the dots more than the dots buff the direct damage abilities.

    in addition, warlock has an ability to cause damage to its targets when they are cleansed. reaver does not.
    warlock can also remove its dots voluntarily from an enemy and then reapply them to another enemy - great for target switching!. reaver cannot do this. reaver relies on plague bringer to ensure potential alternative targets are also dotted (for greatly reduced damage). this requires enemies to be near the initial target, otherwise reaver is gimped.
    When cleansing warlock dots you need to decide if the damage avoided will be worth the cost. When cleansing reaver dots nothing happens. My suggestion copy paste NT over to one of the reaver dots and then allow reaver dots to be cleansed.

    I suppose it is unavoidable when every class can do everything, but does it not seem weird to you that a warrior is a better warlock than a warlock ?

    I havent figured out how to double quote yet so................

    @op I love your idea about melee bleeds being unremovable and up to a point I think melee should have some control but the control would need to balanced against a souls access to gap closers and the over all expected up time of the soul on its intended target. This sounds like way to much work to ever have any chance of happening.

    Mana seems to stop being a mechanic in every game that adds a additional resource to the mana using spec and I am fine with that. Remove the additional mechanic or make mana matter, one of them should matter but not both.
    Open World PVP !
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    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kat Head View Post
    When cleansing warlock dots you need to decide if the damage avoided will be worth the cost. When cleansing reaver dots nothing happens. My suggestion copy paste NT over to one of the reaver dots and then allow reaver dots to be cleansed.
    if reaver dots were to be cleansable you'd need to reduce the buff they give other reaver abilities from 45% per dot to 2% per dot and increase the base damage of all reaver abilities (dots and direct damage) by 180%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

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    Bring back falling damage in PvP!

    This golden clip will never happen again in Rift, ever. I used to bait people with no intention of killing them myself, just a plummet to doom.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtJreiDMNvU
    Last edited by Violacea; 03-29-2015 at 07:16 AM.
    New round up of some high rank matches
    Chun-Li*E.Honda*Evil Ryu
    Abel*Ibuki*Dhalsim
    Gouken*Zangief*Ryu

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