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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Aspects of PvP that could do with alteration.

  1. #31
    Ascendant V1rul3n7's Avatar
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    Well, besides all the obviously normal specifics, I'm glad to see that people understood what I meant when talking about melee specifically applying bleeds.

    Of course, specific abilities apply bleeds, but I would prefer it if melee damage in general was what caused bleed effects. This of course could function for some abilities to apply stronger bleeds than others, functioning as a healing debuff.

    For instance, as a simple comparison:

    Champion uses large sweeping effects, which apply powerful AoE bleeds which multiply based on the amount of targets hit.

    So for instance, a champion hitting 1 target gets a x1 stack dealing 1000 damage per second, hitting 2 targets = 2x stacks to both targets, 3 = 3x stacks to 3 targets etc.

    Then if you take a class which is primarily single target focused then it can only scale up damage with specific abilities inside its tree.

    Of course, the game does have this sort of functionality already, but I would prefer exclusivity when it comes to such effects, so that melee contact is directly detrimental with NO possible counter.

    All ranged classes can only apply purple (cleansable) debuffs, with varying strengths to each different type.

    And melee classes predominantly function to apply bleed effects.

    Then obviously, a class energy/mana system retune.

    Another idea I have toyed with is the concept of giving warriors and rogues blue bars, just like mages and clerics..sure it does remove some of the uniqueness from the game, but it would make mechanics easier to design and compare across the callings.

    Or they could improve mana regeneration rate (and increase mana costs) to make it function a little bit more like energy and still retain the calling flavor.
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  2. #32
    Ascendant V1rul3n7's Avatar
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    Also, as I just noticed in a few other threads

    What do maps need?

    Well, I used to like falling damage, but how can we make that function more in PvP?

    I think the solution is damage tiles personally, dangerous terrain (so the fall doesn't kill you, but what you fall into sure will)

    Wouldnt eye of regulos be so much better if it was just a pit to the void? Like that desert monster from star wars, which you could just.. troll people into.

    And the lich at the end, couldnt that be more of a well designed encounter? A bit more like the Volan encounter.. perhaps some kind of daemonic entity rising out of the eye of regulos a bit like the regulos encounter itself. Mass fighting around the pit of the void with giant raidboss hovering over it?.. That sounds pretty fun to me!

    Even regular warfronts could have such death zones, empyrean traps, lava geysers.. stuff that just adds to the chaos a bit and actually brings the planes into pvp.

    Sorry dude, thats quicksand.. snared.
    You just taunted the mill blade.. feel the pain.

    Also, the red and green orbs (as mentioned in another post), those could be a bit more logically placed (perhaps by the aforementioned death/disablement zones)

    I do see dimension building as the method to create such warfronts, but right now there isnt many pvp specific dimension items, and the accesibility to create pvp warfronts (and get them played) simply isn't there, which is a shame because there is so much the community could create.
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  3. #33
    Ascendant V1rul3n7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormchild View Post
    Can't help but see a slight contradiction of thoughts here.....but who knows! Allow to me hopefully not derail your thread.

    So....yeh I would disable cleanses entirely in PVP (relevant to your post). I'd Give more souls the healing debuff abilities of the reaver. Then I'd reduce Reduce PVP penalty to damage slightly, maybe 2-3%. Heck I might even increase respawn timer 20 seconds for good measure, and then call it a day.

    Fixes all the TTK problems for the average player, and average team, which is a bit high IMO.

    These are the aspects of Rift PVP that I would consider altering......
    See, I don't like the idea of disabling cleanses.. cleanses require player input and actual thought and co-ordination which is what the classes need.
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  4. #34
    Ascendant V1rul3n7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    because rending slash has a max stack of three, providing a maximum of a 9% damage buff, and is spammable (no CD - unlike reaver dots). it is icing, but its not the cake.

    whereas every reaver damaging ability is buffed by a minimum of 25% per reaver dot, some by as much as 45% per reaver dot. the trade off is they hit like a sloppy kiss from your great aunt Mavis when there are no dots to empower them.

    viral stream, infestation, explosive infestation, dire blow, desecrating blow, rancid cleave, ravaging strike all require dots to do any meaningful damage, all are significantly weakened with just a couple of dots cleansed off (2 dots removed = a 90% damage buff gone from infestations!). all are completely harmless if the target has no reaver dots at all.

    reaver exists on a knife edge. if it is completely un-cleansable, its a monster. if its totally cleansable, its pointless.
    making all reaver dots cleansable wont just nerf it in pvp, it will remove the soul completely from the very very short list of warrior pvp viable souls.

    the damage that the reaver dots do themselves is insignificant. it is what they do to other reaver abilities that make them important and entirely central to the reavers viability.

    assassin, on the other hand, the dots empower.... nothing...
    well, would you look at that, the dots work different for assassin and reaver...

    maybe you need to spend a bit more time looking at the mechanics of the souls you're calling for the changes too, not just the vague idea of certain kinds abilities in general.
    My biggest problem with well.. this entire post is:

    You talk as though it's actually difficult to apply dots to a target, they are uncleansable, on low cool downs, with many many options.

    How is applying reaver dots more difficult than applying rending slash stacks?

    Look I don't want reaver destroyed, I want every soul to function uniquely and have its own strengths and weaknesses, and be able to compete as effectively in a group and solo situation as very other soul (sure, not a realistic ideal).

    I was one of the people who, along with yourself (if you remember) actually wanted reaver to be something worthwhile, the difference is I never wanted it to become something over and above competetive and balanced, which I don't believe it is.

    I know the soul mechanics Kronos, the point is this thread is its not about that.

    It was about bleeds becoming melee specific so that melee souls actually have a decent function in a group environment whilst still retaining solo prowess.
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  5. #35
    Ascendant Violacea's Avatar
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    How about MMO's just stop the whole vanishing icons in your buff/debuff rows. Expiration or bust.

    Cleanse, purge, it's annoying and completely un-fun.

    I will pounce the MMO that figures out how to follow the basic model of one without CC. It doesn't matter if I reflect on PvP or PvE I did for years raiding, CC could use change in that, it is probably one of the most annoying mechanics I have ever crossed in any video game. Whoa, awesome! This game has an effect that makes any button I press useless! There is nothing skillful, special or fun about not being able to play your character or fighting someone who can't.

    I mean, the smallest "CC" I've ever seen had to be earned and was mostly exclusive in fighters. If you did damage strings and didn't let down on steady damage, you could eventually get a "stun" where the person is dizzy for a couple seconds. But even then, you have to earn a stun. Lol press a button! Someone only gets stunned after very skillful execution on one persons part. And that is really the only place I've seen character disabling mechanics.
    Last edited by Violacea; 03-31-2015 at 04:06 AM.
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  6. #36
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by V1rul3n7 View Post
    It was about bleeds becoming melee specific so that melee souls actually have a decent function in a group environment whilst still retaining solo prowess.
    how will bleeds actually improve any melee souls?

    take Riftblade. currently not so great in pvp. it is a melee soul. it only has two dots, one of which is ranged, the other of which is a special snow flake - neither melee nor ranged. will either of these be bleeds? how will these abilities improve the soul by being bleeds. will the soul be viable in pvp if these abilities become bleeds?

    on the one hand, your suggestion looks to nerf some ranged souls (you'll kill off reaver, but wont impact tempest at all).
    on the other hand, it doesn't actually do anything to improve the lot of melee in pvp. only certain melee souls will actually benefit, and only if they are already viable in pvp.

    unless you are suggesting adding additional bleed abilities to all melee souls, such that their damage output increases above what it currently is.
    ok, sure, some souls (like RB) could use a bit of a buff. but you are also going to be impacting pve, and you might as well suggest simply increasing the damage of existing abilities.

    melee problems in pvp don't stem from lack of damage, nor from cleansable dots. look at paragon. it can do great damage, only has one dot, and can do perfectly fine without even using that dot.
    however, it suffers in pvp without pocket heals or a premade to back it up.

    your suggestion wont improve the lot of melee in pvp beyond "nerf ranged dps".

  7.   This is the last Rift Team post in this thread.   #37
    Rift Team Ocho's Avatar
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    Interesting thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by V1rul3n7 View Post
    Hello everyone,

    Basically this thread is just a short post which I would like to be kept on topic, and open for a good duration even if trolls somehow derail it to examine the underlying mechanics of PvP in Rift.

    As a general guideline, I would like to avoid discussion of such elements as raw damage output and instead prefer to concentrate on more basic universal elements that affect all the callings equally.
    I do want to give my 2c on thread topics because it's one of those tricky things and I support the effort and idea behind what you want to do.

    General threads are a tempting idea, but are really hard. Threads evolve over time and as such are rarely about what they were initially about after about 10 posts. In this case it pretty quickly became primarily about reaver dots.

    I'd instead recommend a series of posts, just because they can be more tightly focused on smaller topics (like reaver dots for example). It makes things easier to find for us, especially if we happen to be looking for focused feedback on a specific topic. I think it's a tactic that will serve you better.

    Thanks,
    -Ocho-

  8. #38
    Ascendant V1rul3n7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    how will bleeds actually improve any melee souls?

    take Riftblade. currently not so great in pvp. it is a melee soul. it only has two dots, one of which is ranged, the other of which is a special snow flake - neither melee nor ranged. will either of these be bleeds? how will these abilities improve the soul by being bleeds. will the soul be viable in pvp if these abilities become bleeds?

    on the one hand, your suggestion looks to nerf some ranged souls (you'll kill off reaver, but wont impact tempest at all).
    on the other hand, it doesn't actually do anything to improve the lot of melee in pvp. only certain melee souls will actually benefit, and only if they are already viable in pvp.

    unless you are suggesting adding additional bleed abilities to all melee souls, such that their damage output increases above what it currently is.
    ok, sure, some souls (like RB) could use a bit of a buff. but you are also going to be impacting pve, and you might as well suggest simply increasing the damage of existing abilities.

    melee problems in pvp don't stem from lack of damage, nor from cleansable dots. look at paragon. it can do great damage, only has one dot, and can do perfectly fine without even using that dot.
    however, it suffers in pvp without pocket heals or a premade to back it up.

    your suggestion wont improve the lot of melee in pvp beyond "nerf ranged dps".
    I get that with the current soul design, its a hard concept to really describe. I think it comes across that im suggesting small changes to a few classes - which I'm not.

    I understand what you're saying, I get that some classes are more reliant on bleeds, DoT effects etc.

    I'm really suggesting kind of an overhall of the entire combat system, for every soul, probably totally unworkable.

    But bleeds is just one such thing (obviously extremely difficult to implement properly) - Energy maintenance which is sensible universally is another thing which is as equally difficult to implement, but im just brainstorming to see how people actually feel about such fundamental changes.

    Obviously map design and pvp dimensions and such are a lot more workable, as they won't impact on pve so much.

    I knew a general thread was a difficult thing to start to begin with Ocho, but I like to provoke community discussion now and then.

    I think right now, i feel that PvP has become far too simplistic and a lot of the fundamental elements of the game (such as energy/mana bars) are basically not really implemented into the game mechanics (or impact on them very little). Why even have mana/energy bars if nothing particularly impacts them?

    It's like you brought out masteries with energy cost reductions, mana reductions, but.. nothing really uses mana besides one or two select classes (which already have appropriate mana regeneration abilities and talents anyway)

    Obviously its not an easy thing to get right, but it would just be nice for something that fundamental to actually serve a function, just a pet peeve.

    It's like the age old CC arguments, ivory tower logic I suppose

    Map design (particularly pvp dimension accesibility and a good que system) is probably the simplest point of call to really spice up PvP.

    Perhaps something like a "random PvP dimension" warfront que? Obviously make it so a dimension needs to be vetted by the community as "ready for play" before allowing it to be in the list.. but how difficult would something like that be to implement?

    As well as dimension items such as a fang of regulos, vessles, objectives etc.
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  9. #39
    Rift Chaser Dahbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Interesting thread.



    I do want to give my 2c on thread topics because it's one of those tricky things and I support the effort and idea behind what you want to do.

    General threads are a tempting idea, but are really hard. Threads evolve over time and as such are rarely about what they were initially about after about 10 posts. In this case it pretty quickly became primarily about reaver dots.

    I'd instead recommend a series of posts, just because they can be more tightly focused on smaller topics (like reaver dots for example). It makes things easier to find for us, especially if we happen to be looking for focused feedback on a specific topic. I think it's a tactic that will serve you better.

    Thanks,
    -Ocho-
    The specific class whining like this is in every mmo, one person starts to whine about his or her class. They compare skills and balance most of time talk out their rear really not knowing anything about the others classes except what they are told from other players and what the the DPS addons say. There is no getting around this kind of crying.
    "Just tune in, turn off, drop out, drop in, switch off, switch on, and explode." TrollBait goes here.
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  10. #40
    Rift Disciple BiotoxGaming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dahbee View Post
    The specific class whining like this is in every mmo, one person starts to whine about his or her class. They compare skills and balance most of time talk out their rear really not knowing anything about the others classes except what they are told from other players and what the the DPS addons say. There is no getting around this kind of crying.
    What I would like to see in Rift is a rebalance for Melee, not that they can't do good, they can but are at such a disadvantage against ranged classes especially ones with good CC and melee clearly takes far more effort to play in Rift. I'm speaking from battleground experience 10-59 so far, but I except 65 won't change much.

    Some things are missing seems to be snares so staying on your target can be a pain especially if they have any speed buffs up which acts as an additional CC mechanic essentially considering they are accomplishing the same thing. Melee classes should have either a speed buff or a slow effect which many PvP games do for obvious reasons, I hope this mechanic will be considered for melee specs.

    I play a Rogue, love the stealth mechanic but the class seems to be geared more towards non-stealth play because you have a free stealth every 2 minutes (which breaks if ANY DoTs are on you after 15 sec then have to wait 10 sec(which is a long time to start with) to restealth) and considering how many DoTs and how long they last with how easy they are to reapply you'd expect a restealth mechanic that has more pros than cons e.g. not removing u from stealth at all. Just seems like melee classes are tossed under the bus in Rift.

    I'd prefer to see PvP based around class play styles such as a stealth or marksman rogue and all classes having a equal amounts of CC for tactial play but it seems completely different.

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