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Thread: What Is Wrong With PVP In Rift?(PVP 101)

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple
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    Default What Is Wrong With PVP In Rift?(PVP 101)

    Everyday a new thread on whats wrong with pvp in rift. This is wrong, that is wrong, its all wrong. So what is really wrong with pvp in rift? Well the answer is actually pretty simple...

    You are trying to pvp in a PVE oriented game. So the entire direction of the game went down a PVE path. PVP is pretty much a mini game.

    Lets look a little deeper at whats wrong with pvp:

    1)Instances- PVP is pretty much restricted to instances except on a very very few servers ( two maybe?). Instances are a failed pvp concept that is borrowed from and nearly identical( except scenery) to another MMO that is about a world in which two armies fight and then craft which is made by a company that is named after a heavy severe snowstorm. Where said game of a world of two crafting armies may of or may not of invented the concept. But said game is known throughout MMO space as the biggest carebear game to exist in which you can actually kill something that is not AI scripted. So it is therefore the worse possible game to model your PVP system on.

    Lets ignore that Instances themselves are a failed concept and look at other issues...

    2) The game is balanced( or tried) for PVE. This is to make raid x doable if the players meet conditions Y, Z, A, and B. To entertain said players we must make the AI scripts challenging. The old school way of doing this is to make the AI stupid( like most AIs) with a complex set of mechanics. So now we have to balance the game so that complex mechanics are doable but challenging. This doesnt allow balance with something that can both learn and be unpredicable( humans). You must either balance to fight human players or you must balance to fight AI scripts with complex mechanics.

    3) PVE and PVP are connected. Normally this is a good thing. But only if the game is geared for PVP. As PVE is needed for things like resources, crafted goods, and income. But in Rift they are connected in a way in which PVErs, even if they despise pvp, do pvp because they want the rewards from pvp. So they go into WF and CQ half interested and instead of trying to learn and trying to win, they depend on PVPers to carry them most of the way through while they just tab>spam macros>die>respawn>repeat. That is about the max amount of effort they will put into a WF or CQ and your lucky to make it to repeat twice.

    4) Special Gear/ conditions- It didnt work in that game named world of two crafting armies, why would it work here? In no (real) PVP game ive ever played was there "special" gear for pvpers. You just had gear. Any time pvpers get special gear that players call pvp gear...the pvp in that game is going to and has failed. This also goes for when a game starts to restrict abilities to "does not work in pvp" or " 70% effective in pvp", etc. This is like putting a band aid on an amputated leg.

    5) Gear Imbalance- Gear is not balanced between xpacks nor is it balanced at max levels. Raid gear is often better than pvp gear. And devs try various ways to rebalance it so people will use PVP gear to pvp. When you have different types of gear and a variety of "levels" of gear for the same level you end up with gear imbalance. As it is now a 65 raider will have about twice the stats as a new 65 with basic blues. That raider comes into a pvp situation with that new 65 and he is going to straight up own everything in sight...they might as well be 20 levels apart, its pretty much the same thing.

    6) No open world PVP to speak of - Even if one was so inclined to do open world PVP its such a big disaster its about as fun as watching the minion window waiting for the 5 minute adventure to finish. The ridiculous increases in gear power and game mechanics means someone 20 levels above you can pretty much one or two shot you. Its probably a little better in PoW but their is no point in open world pvp which brings me to #7

    7) No reward/loss system- When you win a pvp confrontation, you need a reward. This is your drive to continue to pvp. This is what adds to the excitement. In "real" pvp games this is what or part of what the loser was carrying. You need to lose something when you lose in pvp ( this is where carebear tears are made). It usually something in your inventory and sometimes maybe( depending on how the game is set up) some of what you have equipped. Regardless you learn not go walking around with a lot of valuables if you want to keep them. These two things together make a risk/reward system. Taking a risk and killing a player( that may or may not be better than you) and winning gives you a reward. Losing at such a risk cost you some things. This is what makes pvp exciting... just like the winning and possibly losing of real money makes real slots entertaining whereas fun slots become boring quickly( unless your easily entertained).

    8) ( forgot one) PVP with PVE objectives - epic fail. When you start incorporating PVE elements into what is suppose to be the sole pvp only area of the game... your just adding insult to injury.

    This will never be a pvp game. It would require a massive overhaul of the game. This game will have some haphazard pvp that is kind of like dueling in a group with a winner takes prize and loser just tries...tries....tries....tries again.

    You, people of the pvp forums, are asking for a steak and the devs only have ground chuck to work with...so they are trying to make you a steak shaped ground chuck patty. Enjoy your steak shaped chuck!


    Footnote: I am not ragging on the devs here. They either have to focus on a pvp oriented game or a pve oriented game. You cannot have both (that are good with complex and indepth mechanics) in the same game. They chose PVE as their path( because its the safe bet as their are more carebears than hardcore pvpers that wander the inet even though as a group pvpers foot out a lot more money per capita ).

    And as rift progresses the pvp will get worse even as the devs continue to apply band aids to it. And that is because the PVE will become more indepth and more drastically different than pvp as the game goes futher down the pve road.


    Footnote #2: Gear- In a pvp game you do not want a bunch of tiers of gear for the same level. The idea in pvp is to use skill knowledge and experience to beat your opponent not stats. The idea of pve is to use very little skill and a lot of stats( overwhelming force) to beat your opponent. Gear tiers are not needed in PVP games and only added unnecessary and pointless complexity to balancing between human players.

    PVPers play chess, PVErs play checkers.
    Last edited by Thorian; 03-25-2015 at 05:00 PM.

  2. #2
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    I've tried to make this point several times. Some people just can't accept it. And it has always been the case except in a rare few games.

    The most you can do is try to get Devs to feel the PVP love with you. If you try too aggressively, they will snap and ignore you. This isn't a game that the community runs, Trion built it and runs it...and it was built around slaying dragons.

    But even so, IMO Trion has done a decent job fostering PVP in their PVE game......when will people understand that Devs really only have control over the 'E'. The "E" in PVE. There is no E in PVP. It is truly up to one player, and the other.....how PVP works for them.

    So in summary......the one thing people should know. If one plays Rift _Only_ for the PVP, then its understandable why they are mad, given their emotional attachment to a PVE game. And trying to influence devs with reason and respect.....is the way to fix the perceived problem. Looking through the forums, it's easy to see yall gotta do some work on that front. Lucky for me, I still like the game direction.

  3. #3
    Ascendant Flashmemory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorian View Post
    ...
    Instance PvP works fine. The problem with Rift instance pvp is that there is no incentive in place to push new players to learn warfront mechanics.

    Even when we had a lot of old school premades back in SL, many of them chalked up a loss toward them aiming for kills by the way. It was the reason why death match BG was introduced for that particular crowd.

    Since the Deathmatch warfront can be abused and exploited a set of souls Trion removed the rewards and with that the pms never participated. The fact is pm actually just wanted to pug stomp and go unchallenged. Not all but most in general.

    Trion has tons of data and in game systems to prove these claims.

    As for world pvp. World PvP is pretty bad because the class balancing. What Rift had in early Rift is prime example of this. We had 100s of rogues going in stealth and killing players. This greatly skewed the pve part of things because those classes didn't have favorable roles to fit into the 5/5/5/5 matrix of raiding. Leaving a large portion off rogues with no home was a bad thing and partly due to the reason they were ultra popular at ganking in open world.

    I don't necessary think it is bad to have objective based pvp areas like they did in SL but it was really something that added to the already time consuming aspect of PvP. We don't need added incentives to do more types of pvp. We need added incentives to force players to learn the current system.

    For instance, let us say Trion wanted to force players to learn objectives. What is a good solution to doing this? Well, how about adding a weekly. Cap 5 warfront flags, pick up 5 warfront objectives. Certain objectives that can be dropped and reclaimed need to be looked at but besides that this one weekly will GREATLY change the environment of PvP and get players to participate in matches and learn objectives. Since, it intertwines with the current weeklies it would not add more addition "grind."

    They can also add back cq dailies. The same for Stillmoor as it was in SL. That is an inclusive design.

    Then you have to look for a solid idea for IG. Well, since IG is kind of one sided usually. You can change the map so that if you pick up shiny you can add to scoreboard. Spread those shiny stones around the map and make a daily to collect 25 shinies This will probably go a long way to adding a little flavor to IG conquest as well as promote some out skirt mini battles. Again this won't add more grind to pvp but be inclusive. They can reduce the number of crystals to half so it actually encourages collecting shinies.


    Let us call it how it is. People are angry about one thing in general. The fact that raiders are rewarded a lot more than people who choose to not raid. Successful raiders usually do end up playing a lot less because they hit cap much faster and the time spent raiding is reduced so much that raiders do full clears in one raid session. This doesn't usually happen for pvp which is less rewarding for the time spent doing it.

    There are different ways to "fix" pvp. I am not saying these are best ways but I do believe there is ways out there that can be done that don't require huge effort on developers. Even if it turns out bad the reversion and effort would be minimal so it wouldn't be so much of loss in terms of developmental time.

  4. #4
    Plane Walker
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    It’s been suggested before, but the truce between Guardians and Defiants with no adjustment to the world PvP meta has been a major flaw. Transitioning to a guild versus guild or alliance versus alliance might have helped save the pvp shards. It also would have been cool if Guilds could somehow ‘claim’ the various towns and encampments, adding some prestige to the open world.

    Instance PvP is fun for what it is.
    Koz

  5. #5
    Ascendant SprawlnBrawl's Avatar
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    PvP gear works in WoW, what are you talking about? imagine how great it would be if you could not upgrade to top tier PvP gear without a good ELO like WoW, that would be amazing.
    Last edited by SprawlnBrawl; 03-26-2015 at 12:32 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by SprawlnBrawl View Post
    PvP gear works in WoW, what are you talking about? imagine how great it would be if you could not upgrade to top tier PvP gear without a good ELO like WoW, that would be amazing.
    Only if you couldnt use that gear against some undergeared noobs, else you would have good players in good gear facing undergeared noobs or newbes. Besides WoW has a lot bigger population so its easier for them to adjust the settings for more balanced MM or even separated gear. Rifts needs to bring playerbase together of game will feel like it's dying ;)
    Quote Originally Posted by elfaraon View Post
    you really need to play more pyro . I bet you are a warrior or rogue so your opinion is not accurate at all. By the way pyro is not even close to have the highest burst in the game tell that to a sin or warlord

  7. #7
    Ascendant SprawlnBrawl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otts View Post
    Only if you couldnt use that gear against some undergeared noobs, else you would have good players in good gear facing undergeared noobs or newbes. Besides WoW has a lot bigger population so its easier for them to adjust the settings for more balanced MM or even separated gear. Rifts needs to bring playerbase together of game will feel like it's dying ;)
    Noobs can have bis gear they are still free kills

  8. #8
    Champion Nuitaran's Avatar
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    To be honest with you, of all the things "wrong" with PvP right now, the biggest one is the sheer number of people that just don't want to be there. If you got rid of all the people that are only there to max out their marks PvP would improve by leaps and bounds.
    KABOOM!

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