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    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
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    Default Evolved PvP Discussion Thread

    This discussion has been going on for awhile now and I really think changes need to start happen. I am completely fine with Trion trying to get PvE'rs to experience the PvP aspect of the game, but it needs to be done in a different way. I love the currency I get for PvE from PvP, but I also very much enjoy PvP. I finished both of my warfront weeklies on Wednesday and have been in warfronts nearly every day since. I would PvP even if there was no currency. I no longer need the dreambreaker gear (I wouldn't mind the dex heavy earring to replace my End one) so I do PvP for the weekly and because I enjoy it. However, for many PvE'rs, PvP is for gearing up and getting currency, meaning they do not have to participate to get what they need. The result is the following picture.

    Evolved PvP Discussion Thread-2015-03-24_104416.jpg

    We were getting blown out and I jumped down to see multiple people just sitting there, waiting for it to be over. As I've said, I enjoy PvP, so even when it's 900-200, I will still play. If you want to just sit there, I really don't care, it's your time. But if half of my team is afk or just waiting out the score, that means those of us who enjoy PvP must be forced to continue with half a team. At the end, the opposing team were all stacked up in the middle. We did not have enough people to attack the group and would get wrecked in seconds.

    So my suggestion: participation based reward. You want credit for the win? You want all those kills to count towards your weekly? Kill a carrier, save a teammate, carry the fang. That way, the people who enjoy PvP are still being rewarded and those who just want the rewards must earn them. Sure this won't stop people from afking or leaving losing warfronts, but while that problem is being worked on, I think we should address this situation. Because for each person that leaves, there is the opportunity for someone else to come in, however for each person that hides somewhere in the warfront, one player that may want to PvP can't come in.

    To be honest, I'd rather PvP and PvE be separate, but if you must integrate the two, at least make sure PvP is still PvP rather than PvafkP
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    Ascendant spaceboots's Avatar
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    thats always a problem Trion has is balancing rewards against leechers in pvp to pve. And the more you reward someone, the more reason there is to exploit for the rewards since both parties are players.

    On the other hand, when they give us this excuse they are ignoring the fact people get carried through pve content all the time, let alone the fact given the nature of pve it only gets easier as you get more gear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Artewig View Post
    Because for each person that leaves, there is the opportunity for someone else to come in, however for each person that hides somewhere in the warfront, one player that may want to PvP can't come in.
    Except that nobody wants to come in a one sided warfront unless it's the winning team, let alone started warfront.

    I agree that afkers need to be dealt with, but it's more important that the ones that afk at the start get punished so we get less of those one sided warfronts.

    If you can't beat them, join em.
    Can't beat the afkers? Join them for the reminder of the warfront. We don't have any ways to deal with afkers. They get rewarded for afking.
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    Two things to mind right away.

    1. Make the weeklies 500 kills, not 1000 kills, so those people who detest pvp like me, don't have to come in and (AFK) cause they hate pvp and just want the horror marks.

    2. Do away with marks of horror so people like me don't have to go in at all. Ever.

    To each their own I guess. Some people play this game for pvp, and some for pve, and then I guess you have those who do both. However, if you eliminate the PVE rewards from PVP (such as the weeklies for getting marks of horror) you might get a change.

    I had once mentioned that they should make a dual system so each week you get to choose 3 different weeklies you want to work on. Make a pool with pvp and pve quests and each person can choose up to 3 they want to complete.

    This might make a difference.
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    To quote a random paper I found online:

    "Defeating the enemy’s will. That is the essence of maneuver warfare, that you defeat the
    enemy’s will to fight rather than his ability to fight."

    In the situation you're describing, folks have had their will defeated. It's a really difficult design task to address that. If this happens at the beginning of a match, then it's more an area of concern.

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    Ascendant butkus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artewig View Post
    This discussion has been going on for awhile now and I really think changes need to start happen. I am completely fine with Trion trying to get PvE'rs to experience the PvP aspect of the game, but it needs to be done in a different way. I love the currency I get for PvE from PvP, but I also very much enjoy PvP. I finished both of my warfront weeklies on Wednesday and have been in warfronts nearly every day since. I would PvP even if there was no currency. I no longer need the dreambreaker gear (I wouldn't mind the dex heavy earring to replace my End one) so I do PvP for the weekly and because I enjoy it. However, for many PvE'rs, PvP is for gearing up and getting currency, meaning they do not have to participate to get what they need. The result is the following picture.


    We were getting blown out and I jumped down to see multiple people just sitting there, waiting for it to be over. As I've said, I enjoy PvP, so even when it's 900-200, I will still play. If you want to just sit there, I really don't care, it's your time. But if half of my team is afk or just waiting out the score, that means those of us who enjoy PvP must be forced to continue with half a team. At the end, the opposing team were all stacked up in the middle. We did not have enough people to attack the group and would get wrecked in seconds.

    So my suggestion: participation based reward. You want credit for the win? You want all those kills to count towards your weekly? Kill a carrier, save a teammate, carry the fang. That way, the people who enjoy PvP are still being rewarded and those who just want the rewards must earn them. Sure this won't stop people from afking or leaving losing warfronts, but while that problem is being worked on, I think we should address this situation. Because for each person that leaves, there is the opportunity for someone else to come in, however for each person that hides somewhere in the warfront, one player that may want to PvP can't come in.

    To be honest, I'd rather PvP and PvE be separate, but if you must integrate the two, at least make sure PvP is still PvP rather than PvafkP
    i see this happen countless times per day and lot of times it happens after the first "wipe".hate to admit it but i have found myself sitting there "afk" from time to time. when your team is so bad they refuse/dont want to/ or cant do the simple tasks,its best to just join them and re q.

    one thing i noticed is if i do not mark healers and the like when the match starts,most players will just run in and hit/dps tanks-other dps- and never FF on one target.they usually wipe and then sit there afk until the match is over.
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    Rift Chaser Sunrun's Avatar
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    It's that particular warfront. It's over in the first 15 seconds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    To quote a random paper I found online:

    "Defeating the enemy’s will. That is the essence of maneuver warfare, that you defeat the
    enemy’s will to fight rather than his ability to fight."

    In the situation you're describing, folks have had their will defeated. It's a really difficult design task to address that. If this happens at the beginning of a match, then it's more an area of concern.
    That is only true if both teams want to win. The high number of AFK'ers, Soul recallers, Rogues stealthed over in the corner leaching kills is the problem. Rewards should be re-evaluated and tied to participation in 3 categories

    Objectives
    DPS
    Heals

    Such that if you are afk in a wf you get ZERO Benefit. If you are stealthed in a corner again ZERO benefit. That would solve the problem with a stick.

    A better solution is to make charges a total number per week (14) Useable on PVE OR PVP, and double the weekly Rewards for Weekly quests but limit players to 2 or 3 so that they can just do the PVE Ones or the PVP ones, BUT do not feel compelled to participate in an activity they so obviously detest.

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    Champion Fallse's Avatar
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    Default I agree

    Quote Originally Posted by butkus View Post
    i see this happen countless times per day and lot of times it happens after the first "wipe".hate to admit it but i have found myself sitting there "afk" from time to time. when your team is so bad they refuse/dont want to/ or cant do the simple tasks,its best to just join them and re q.

    one thing i noticed is if i do not mark healers and the like when the match starts,most players will just run in and hit/dps tanks-other dps- and never FF on one target.they usually wipe and then sit there afk until the match is over.
    I also often find myself annoyed at the horribad teams I am on but that is a function of the matchmaking system. I do not know what the scale is 0-1000 or whatever but there should be brackets and all the horribad players should be in the same bracket, then the middle bracket, and then the top bracket I think it would be much more enjoyable to PVP with folks of approximately your skill level than being the 2 best people on a team full of teribads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrodite Rising View Post
    Two things to mind right away.

    1. Make the weeklies 500 kills, not 1000 kills, so those people who detest pvp like me, don't have to come in and (AFK) cause they hate pvp and just want the horror marks.

    2. Do away with marks of horror so people like me don't have to go in at all. Ever.

    To each their own I guess. Some people play this game for pvp, and some for pve, and then I guess you have those who do both. However, if you eliminate the PVE rewards from PVP (such as the weeklies for getting marks of horror) you might get a change.
    It's too bad people who detest PVE couldn't join a raid and simply AFK for rewards because they didn't like it, without getting kicked. Would it frustrate you to fail simply because people completely uninterested in the purpose of that raid would cause it to fail? Since PVP gear is tied to PVE, it seems that PVPers should be afforded the same luxury to AFK through content they don't enjoy.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrodite Rising View Post
    I had once mentioned that they should make a dual system so each week you get to choose 3 different weeklies you want to work on. Make a pool with pvp and pve quests and each person can choose up to 3 they want to complete.

    This might make a difference.
    This is a good suggestion.
    Back for another round!

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    /hugs

  11. #11
    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    To quote a random paper I found online:

    "Defeating the enemy’s will. That is the essence of maneuver warfare, that you defeat the
    enemy’s will to fight rather than his ability to fight."

    In the situation you're describing, folks have had their will defeated. It's a really difficult design task to address that. If this happens at the beginning of a match, then it's more an area of concern.
    That quote is from a pretty good paper on psychological warfare.

    I understand that it is difficult to make it "fair" for both sides so that it is enjoyable to the end for everyone. And I also understand that at that point, the match was over, regardless of how much effort any individual put in, however this generally goes on throughout the match. I'm sure it was happening on the opposing team too. At the beginning people will often leave if there are no healers, but for many that stay, the afking starts as soon as it appears that the team is not going to win. For example, like Butkus said, after the first wipe.

    I have been in numerous situations where we did not have a healer and still won, or we came back to win from a deficit. While I think your quote in many ways describes the situation, I think it comes down to the purpose of PvP. Sure, it sucks to be way behind in a warfront, but for some, it is a challenge presenting itself or a chance to measure skill and organization. And yes, many afk to make it end faster. I will admit that when the opposing team has 2/3 Power Cores destroyed in Karthan and everyone is just AoEing the last one, I have said to just let them take it because neither side is going to give up their post. But like I said, many of those afk'ers are not there to PvP. They're there to collect currency, kills, and wins. So when it's 500-200 and people are afk, sure some may have lost their will, but many are there for the carry, for the win, and if they can't get that, well at least their teammates will get them kills. And if you don't want to PvP, you want to be in and out of there with your win, currency, and kills.

    So instead of just ranting about all the things wrong with PvP (kind of what I just did ) I think we as a community need to outline what is wrong with individual aspects of PvP and formulate solutions for each of them.

    Aphrodite Rising, thanks for the suggestions. I'd like to give my opinion on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrodite Rising View Post
    1. Make the weeklies 500 kills, not 1000 kills, so those people who detest pvp like me, don't have to come in and (AFK) cause they hate pvp and just want the horror marks.
    Personally, I do not think changing the kills weekly will make a difference. Sure, players who do not want to be there will be in there for less time, but it doesn't solve the issue of people not wanting to be there. Not to mention the work required being reduced would (should) also reduce the reward, which I'm sure no one wants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrodite Rising View Post
    2. Do away with marks of horror so people like me don't have to go in at all. Ever.
    I'm assuming (correct me if I am mistaken) that you are referring to removing them as a reward for PvP. If that were to happen, and I think it isn't a bad idea, Trion would need (or at least should) to create another method of gaining Fragments of Horror. PvP is a very significant source of currency week to week (part of the reason this whole thing started), especially for those who aren't raiding or who aren't clearing more than a few bosses a week. So there are a couple of ways that this could go. New PvE based weeklies could be created so that PvE'ers wouldn't have to PvP. One could say that this would lead to PvP'ers being "forced" to PvE for currency, however I would say that this would not be much of an issue at all once bolstering is straightened out (i.e PvE gear not being better than PvP gear in PvP). On the other hand, Trion could increase the rewards from current PvE objectives, ie Dungeons, weeklies, and raids. Increasing raid currency to make up for it would hurt those not clearing as much content, and also you would have players gaining more currency for the same (or less if you don't PvP at all) amount of work. While I like getting more currency for the same amount of work, it's not the right way to fix this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrodite Rising View Post
    I had once mentioned that they should make a dual system so each week you get to choose 3 different weeklies you want to work on. Make a pool with pvp and pve quests and each person can choose up to 3 they want to complete.
    Now this is a pretty good idea. It solves the issue with your previous suggestion and also the issue of players not wanting to PvP. I think the weeklies would have to be similar in difficulty (A sure challenge to Trion, would love to see what they could come up with) to avoid pressure to do one type of weekly or another due to efficiency. It would also allow PvP'ers to just PvP without having to worry about half their team not wanting to be there.

    Now for Fallse's suggestion (Of course it gets posted while I'm reading over my post for submission )

    Quote Originally Posted by Fallse View Post
    A better solution is to make charges a total number per week (14) Useable on PVE OR PVP, and double the weekly Rewards for Weekly quests but limit players to 2 or 3 so that they can just do the PVE Ones or the PVP ones, BUT do not feel compelled to participate in an activity they so obviously detest.
    This would solve the issue of people not wanting to PvP for currency and it's not a bad idea (not sure how difficult the distribution of charges would be to implement). This also still leaves the issue of gear from PvP being BiS pre-raid, and with the increased drop rate, sometimes easier to get than particular PvE pieces. But that is another issue to be solved.

    TL;DR There is a lot of work to be done with PvP. The community has great ideas on how to solve this and I want to hear them.
    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse
    We are absolutely a service industry and you're only as good as your last contact with the customer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    To quote a random paper I found online:

    "Defeating the enemy’s will. That is the essence of maneuver warfare, that you defeat the
    enemy’s will to fight rather than his ability to fight."

    In the situation you're describing, folks have had their will defeated. It's a really difficult design task to address that. If this happens at the beginning of a match, then it's more an area of concern.
    It sounds like the folks defeated in will are the ones wanting to PVP, but given only part of a team also wanting to PVP.

    The AFKers are doing exactly what they planned. They join, AFK, grab a beer, watch a video, skype, etc. Once the match is done and they can claim the rewards and rinse/repeat as needed.

    How do you fix that? Provide incentive for winning and remove the need for the uninterested to participate.

    I just spent a few hours this past week leveling from 60 to 65. If I could've broken the will of all the PVE mobs and AFK'd my way there instead of actually doing it, I'm going to be very disappointed. ;)
    Back for another round!

    Retired Aug 2014

    /hugs

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    Ascendant spaceboots's Avatar
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    How do you fix it? Add LFR and let me afk my free gear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    To quote a random paper I found online:

    "Defeating the enemy’s will. That is the essence of maneuver warfare, that you defeat the
    enemy’s will to fight rather than his ability to fight."

    In the situation you're describing, folks have had their will defeated. It's a really difficult design task to address that. If this happens at the beginning of a match, then it's more an area of concern.
    it isn't their will to fight that was defeated, because they never had any such will to begin with.
    they don't want to be there, they have to be there (for maximising currency grind).

    this is only made worse by a matchmaking system that puts players with low ELOs into the same matches as players with high ELOs. while the teams might be "balanced" on paper, when the two teams meet, the low ELO players quickly find themselves back in their spawn with little to no chance of being able to compete.

    AFKing has always been a problem, but in 3.0 it has reached plague proportions and absolutely nothing has been done to address it (or at least nothing that we as players have been able to see). if anything, the problem has actually been made worse by some of the changes made to warfronts since NT launch. the reduction in match timers (all maps are now 15 mins) and the increase in points per objective, and how the queue system seeks to reward players on losing streaks have actually made AFKing even more efficient to the point of actively encouraging it.

    I've made plenty of posts elsewhere with my suggestions on addressing this and other issues.
    what it boils down too is that the current matchmaking system needs to be completely thrown out and replaced.
    reverting to something similar to the system in place during early storm legion (replacing prestige rank with ELO) would be better.
    not necessarily best, just better than the current system.

    at the very least, you could give us a "mark player AFK" system that actually works and removes AFKers like those pictured above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

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    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    it isn't their will to fight that was defeated, because they never had any such will to begin with.
    they don't want to be there, they have to be there (for maximising currency grind).

    this is only made worse by a matchmaking system that puts players with low ELOs into the same matches as players with high ELOs. while the teams might be "balanced" on paper, when the two teams meet, the low ELO players quickly find themselves back in their spawn with little to no chance of being able to compete.

    AFKing has always been a problem, but in 3.0 it has reached plague proportions and absolutely nothing has been done to address it (or at least nothing that we as players have been able to see). if anything, the problem has actually been made worse by some of the changes made to warfronts since NT launch. the reduction in match timers (all maps are now 15 mins) and the increase in points per objective, and how the queue system seeks to reward players on losing streaks have actually made AFKing even more efficient to the point of actively encouraging it.

    I've made plenty of posts elsewhere with my suggestions on addressing this and other issues.
    what it boils down too is that the current matchmaking system needs to be completely thrown out and replaced.
    reverting to something similar to the system in place during early storm legion (replacing prestige rank with ELO) would be better.
    not necessarily best, just better than the current system.

    at the very least, you could give us a "mark player AFK" system that actually works and removes AFKers like those pictured above.
    I think Ocho was mainly referring to the picture I posted which was a clear loss by an enormous margin, but overall, yes, PvE'ers that don't want to be there generally don't have a will to win. I've read most of your posts about the situation and agree with the majority of it. Most of the posts about PvP have been complaints so I wanted to start out with my complaints, and then begin to consolidate suggestions and ideas. Personally I really don't care about my prestige. I don't do anything to improve it, it's just something I get as a result of PvPing. Eventually I'd like to hit 100 (currently 86) but that's more because I like to get achievements. Anyway, I do agree that the matchmaking system needs work, but I also think that the sorting out of reasons for PvPing and making sure players are there because they want to, will help out with the matchmaking. It won't solve it, but it will reduce queue times and overall improve the quality of PvP. So I think both are equally important problems that need to be solved. And I'm always open to discussing suggestions. I really think that this community can drive change, and it starts with getting organized.
    Last edited by Artewig; 03-24-2015 at 02:32 PM. Reason: Spelling Errors.. Oops
    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse
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