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Thread: Question to the Devs (Gear Normilization in PvP)

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Question to the Devs (Gear Normilization in PvP)

    Having left with 3.0, i have jumped around a bit, played a lot of mmo's and mobas, rts, ect. And even quit online gaming for a few months because im just not having fun anymore.
    I miss vanilla rift's pvp, and even storm leigon to a certain extent and cant really find that experience in any other game out atm.
    Now i understand that we will NEVER have our pvp gear back. The pve kids whine, their your biggest customers, they get what they want, very simple concept.
    What i would like to see though is an even playing field for EVERY player who steps into a warfront. The basic premise behind competitive pvp is that every players that enters is on a level playing field, no one person starts with any advantage or handicap compared to the others.

    So my question / suggestion is if you would consider completely normalizing (or removing) gear from warfronts in Rift.

    When a player enters a warfront they will be given a fixed set of stats that are exactly the same as every other player of that class that enters.

    This would make class balancing much easier as well because you will be balancing the power of only 4 sets of stats.

    This will also make warfronts ultimately decided by teamwork / skill/ and team comp.

    Fresh 65's could jump in and be just as competitive as vets, pve players and pvp players will be on an even playing field. No one cries about it except those who want gear carried.

    Everyone wins, skill shines through.

    So would this be a possibility in Rifts future?

  2. #2
    Ascendant Violacea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harms View Post
    What i would like to see though is an even playing field for EVERY player who steps into a warfront. The basic premise behind competitive pvp is that every players that enters is on a level playing field, no one person starts with any advantage or handicap compared to the others.
    This is true. But you do know that the structure and entire MO/path of a game like Rift is character power progression. It's why when I first played MMO's I went for PvE. I knew how they were designed and logic told me that engaging in player vs player content would result in lots of imbalanced fights.

    I am not sure how you maintain a sense of an even playing field coexisting with character power progression and options. Or maybe the playing field is not meant to be level.
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  3. #3
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violacea View Post
    This is true. But you do know that the structure and entire MO/path of a game like Rift is character power progression. It's why when I first played MMO's I went for PvE. I knew how they were designed and logic told me that engaging in player vs player content would result in lots of imbalanced fights.

    I am not sure how you maintain a sense of an even playing field coexisting with character power progression and options. Or maybe the playing field is not meant to be level.
    With all normalized stats there would be no progression. Everyone would be completely equal aside from spec choice. Skill would be the only factor in individual performance.
    This obviously does not work for pve, im only suggesting it for pvp.

    In my eyes pvp progression was removed when they took away gear earned through solely pvping anyway. If a player refuses to do pve content to partake in pvp then they cannot progress in pvp.

  4. #4
    Rift Disciple
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harms View Post
    In my eyes pvp progression was removed when they took away gear earned through solely pvping anyway. If a player refuses to do pve content to partake in pvp then they cannot progress in pvp.
    This isn't entirely true any more though, some of the flaws have been improved upon, even now in the latest hotfix.
    Personally I don't care so much for the complete normalization.
    There has always been a ceiling, and if the "down bolstering" works there still is, so when people get there, things start to get normalized anyway.

  5. #5
    Rift Disciple Mukoswave's Avatar
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    Default Well...

    Quote Originally Posted by Harms View Post
    With all normalized stats there would be no progression. Everyone would be completely equal aside from spec choice. Skill would be the only factor in individual performance.
    This obviously does not work for pve, im only suggesting it for pvp.

    In my eyes pvp progression was removed when they took away gear earned through solely pvping anyway. If a player refuses to do pve content to partake in pvp then they cannot progress in pvp.
    I understand your point, but I think for rift it wouldn't work. If all stats were normalized, then what would be the incentive to work for new gear. For me, there has to be some type of progression so I can know that my work will have paid off. I mean, pvp here is ok fun( was better in past), but I pvp to work towards my dreambreaker gear.

    Also you can now progress reasonable in pvp now. With changes to increased drop box rate, getting gear will be easier. Also grinding for marks isn't bad, all you really have to do is a couple of pve dailies then you will be done.(excluding NTE's)
    Quote Originally Posted by Violacea View Post
    I admit, even I am not genius enough to design a game with PvP, that gets filled with players who hate dislike PvP engaging in it, and ruin the PvP for the people who want to PvP. I mean, let's hand it. That is pretty insane genius. I am thinking of the potential I could have in life if I mastered this. If I could design something and get people who don't even want to do it, flooding my gates doing it on their own will.

  6. #6
    Prophet of Telara
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    You cant just give everyone the same stats and think it will be balanced because different specs have different scalling.

    Another problem is related to lack of progression. It's mmo, you're not supposed to sit with the same gear until you're gived better for free. Killing most raids (ecept Crucia) requires only 3h per week for decent players in dreambreaker gear only. (progression is non-existent now where there are guides and videos for all the bosses) You only have to execute them which shouldnt be a problem for non-terrible pvpers.
    Quote Originally Posted by elfaraon View Post
    you really need to play more pyro . I bet you are a warrior or rogue so your opinion is not accurate at all. By the way pyro is not even close to have the highest burst in the game tell that to a sin or warlord

  7. #7
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    Gear normalization is intriguing, but as most folks have said, it doesn't seem to belong in Rift. Since Rift is a FTP but pay for boost/convenience, I don't see how they would monetize a normalization based PvP system since there would be no incentive to buy token boosts, gear, upgrades etc. Nor would there be an incentive to do weekly quests which increases the player base for those who actually want to do the weekly quests.

    I agree with the above posters that PvP is getting better with many of the recent changes. The main thing I would like to see fixed is downbolstering to ensure that you don't need to obtain PvE gear to PvP. They originally posted that all PvE gear would be downbolstered to be no better than the best PvP gear available. This would be an amazing fix and end most of the posts about needing to PvE to PvP.

  8. #8
    Soulwalker
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    Your idea makes a much better competitive game, but that won't satisfy the community or the developers. The only reason people would have left to play is for fun(shockingly this is a bad thing). People would rather chase the carrot than be immersed in a fun experience.

    Also, as someone said, every class cannot have the same gear because some would benefit more than others from certain stats. What needs to exist is a wider variety of gears that provide more specified bonuses. All at the same item level but giving very different stats.

    I, however, agree with you. The journey/grind/wait to get your competitive gear is just a meaningless waste of time. Pvp should be based on skill and tactics not hours grinded. But such is the way of most mmos and such is the way of this one.

  9. #9
    Telaran
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    Default Gear normalization in pvp

    Gear normalization in pvp remove the purpose of gear in a game... we can all walk around naked...or we can play same several 3.0 dungeons like bots for eternity...or of course kill some mobs and finish some quests with no purpose ...just to finish them...

    have fun
    Last edited by Amael37; 03-21-2015 at 10:08 AM.

  10. #10
    Ascendant
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harms View Post
    In my eyes pvp progression was removed when they took away gear earned through solely pvping anyway. If a player refuses to do pve content to partake in pvp then they cannot progress in pvp.
    The stats on Marauder/Ephemeral/Dreambreaker gear was improved, and the chances of getting gear from the Marauder Supply Caches improved (and soon to be improved yet again.

    The only reason to do PvE is to get more Abyssal Crusader Marks, Fragments of Horror, and Void Stone. If you really want to maximize gear progression, go ahead and do some PvE, but I find I get enough marks from the PvP charges and weeklies that I don't need to do dungeons or raids.

  11. #11
    Rift Disciple
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    It's cute you think trion could actually pull off gear normalization. You've seen how well they have done with bolstering, right?

  12. #12
    Ascendant TedO's Avatar
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    At one point, normalization was highly considered, but the push back was so fierce, and the half assed attempt at it was far to great for them to consider it too deeply, from what I remembered.

    Just balancing in general, with all the combinations of souls and the myriad of problems each "small" tweak brings seems more like an all or nothing scenario, than some simple matter.
    Elimination aka Gramps, formerly of MMAC, Squabs Squad, Mobile Death Squad,FoTM,Temporal Insurgence, Beep Beep Imma Jeep and Philanthropy

  13. #13
    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedO View Post
    At one point, normalization was highly considered, but the push back was so fierce, and the half assed attempt at it was far to great for them to consider it too deeply, from what I remembered.
    This is the standard Trion MO for silencing good ideas. They say, "okay, we'll try it", then give it a poor implementation, wait for the complaint brigade, then write it off as a total failure. Ranked Black Garden, Master Mode dungeons, and basically all open world PvP content are good examples.

    The funny thing is that it was the PvPers who complained about gear normalisation. The experiment was done with the idea of making it easier for non-PvPers to get into PvP. When the PvP community cried its eyes out about their gear being worthless, Trion still had the same problem on their hands. And thus came Plan B: gear unification. It's pretty funny, when you think about it. The lies, hysteria, and hyperbole contrived by the PvP community in response to the normalisation experiment led invariably to the abolition of PvP gear altogether.

    But then, when has anyone on this forum ever considered that their perpetual outrage could have consequences?
    Last edited by Ianto Jones; 03-22-2015 at 01:50 PM.

  14. #14
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violacea View Post
    This is true. But you do know that the structure and entire MO/path of a game like Rift is character power progression. It's why when I first played MMO's I went for PvE. I knew how they were designed and logic told me that engaging in player vs player content would result in lots of imbalanced fights.

    I am not sure how you maintain a sense of an even playing field coexisting with character power progression and options. Or maybe the playing field is not meant to be level.
    That is false.

    This line of thinking is now somewhat outdated and exists here because Rift copied so much stuff from vanila WoW and its predecessors. But now there are several solutions to this issue throughout games in the MMORPG genre on the market today. Just because you haven't tried any and are unfamiliar with them, does not mean the rest of us are the same as you.

    A lot of the games are actually getting away from the gear tier grinder mentality when it comes to PvP in various forms, some focus on horizontal skill progression instead of gear grind, so its quick and easy to top a single or maybe 2 lines of combat, but as you progress, you open up more and more options it becomes really hard to master them.

    Other games for example have put limits on how much difference there is from gear stats, so that if you have the top gear, you can still barely feel having an edge making it worth the time and effort, but if you make 1 little mistake, and the undergeared guy is half decent, then you'll get owned regardless of your gear, which is not the case in this game.

    There is also active combat in various implimentations. Something Rift and trion simply can not handle at all. Again, no matter your gear, if you play poorly, you will get beat.

    I strongly suggest you research and try some different games. Do not make false assumptions then post them as facts, just because you think it is so.
    Last edited by Shouku; 03-23-2015 at 12:58 AM.

  15. #15
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shouku View Post
    A lot of the games are actually getting away from the gear tier grinder mentality when it comes to PvP in various forms, some focus on horizontal skill progression instead of gear grind, so its quick and easy to top a single or maybe 2 lines of combat, but as you progress, you open up more and more options it becomes really hard to master them.

    Other games for example have put limits on how much difference there is from gear stats, so that if you have the top gear, you can still barely feel having an edge making it worth the time and effort, but if you make 1 little mistake, and the undergeared guy is half decent, then you'll get owned regardless of your gear, which is not the case in this game.

    There is also active combat in various implimentations. Something Rift and trion simply can not handle at all. Again, no matter your gear, if you play poorly, you will get beat.
    Care to elaborate on these points? Specifically which games and how does exactly do these systems work?

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