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Thread: Progression and things that keep us gaming.

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    Plane Touched Fusscle's Avatar
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    Default Progression and things that keep us gaming.

    I coppied some Comments from Ocho, in Visionmaker's thread about the Direction of PVP.

    Quote:
    Some folks don't like it, and that's just fine. Ultimately they have to decide if the reward is worth engaging in the activity for them. If the answer is yes, then do the content. If no, then you probably shouldn't be doing it.

    As we've stated we do want to get more ways for folks to earn substantial rewards in game, and that this is a long term project we are working on. The sparkle quest over the holidays was an early test in this direction, and a good learning experience for us.


    PvP is a special challenge because it's possible to fail your way to rewards. Log in and AFK enough and you'll earn something. Incentivizing that behavior leads to more AFKers in Warfronts which I think we can all agree is a bad thing.

    Ultimately most folks enjoy doing multiple types of content, and the game will always have the greatest rewards that way. That's because it's one game, rather than a bunch of separate games you happen to use the same character in. But we are open to suggestion and have interest in ideas on how to improve rewards for various aspects of the game individually as well.

    Since this thread at this point seems more to discuss PvE aspects of the game, it appears to have run its course. Locking it.
    I would argue that the game itself should keep us gaming. I'm tired of gimmicks and carrots on sticks. Tired of grinding for things. People will do almost anything to get an advantage in PVP, and so people are doing all kinds of content they don't like. In my opinion Trion should not consider engagement to be the same thing as enjoyment. This was the biggest mistake of Nightmare tide. (take Nightmare Rifts for a prime example)

    Instead I think Trion should consider the things players enjoy most about Rift, the things you might talk about with your friends after, and focus on making more of those moments happen. These days, unless you play a lot, you're grinding your *** off just to get close to capping your marks, and you can forget about playing an alt.

    This isn't complicated, and it's worth considering.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fusscle View Post
    PvP is a special challenge because it's possible to fail your way to rewards. Log in and AFK enough and you'll earn something. Incentivizing that behavior leads to more AFKers in Warfronts which I think we can all agree is a bad thing.
    I'll be honest here: this quote pisses me off a great deal.

    If it is possible to fail your way to rewards, then that is only because Trion makes it possible to do so. How difficult is it to spot people who have near-zero damage/healing/CC done over a persiod of three or so matches and hit them with an extended 'Ascended Disgrace' debuff?

    Alternatively, how difficult is it to implement effort-based rewards? I started a suggestion topic for PvP repeatable quests that would (modestly) reward PvP players based on their accomplishments and activities in PvP and at least partially solve the problem. Give rewards for effort and not just wins and the problem will be solved entirely.

    Ultimately most folks enjoy doing multiple types of content, and the game will always have the greatest rewards that way. That's because it's one game, rather than a bunch of separate games you happen to use the same character in. But we are open to suggestion and have interest in ideas on how to improve rewards for various aspects of the game individually as well.
    Having the devs read the topic on PvP repeatable quests would be a start. Shifting the goals for the weeklies away from simple wins would be another - have the weeklies based around the total damage/healing done as well as KBs/Saves/#-of-players-killed-while-under-your-CC/objectives-met-in-warfronts-a-b-c-and-d and all of a sudden the spawn-sitting AFKers will no longer be able to accomplish weeklies without actually learning how to PvP.

    I would argue that the game itself should keep us gaming. I'm tired of gimmicks and carrots on sticks. Tired of grinding for things. People will do almost anything to get an advantage in PVP, and so people are doing all kinds of content they don't like. In my opinion Trion should not consider engagement to be the same thing as enjoyment. This was the biggest mistake of Nightmare tide. (take Nightmare Rifts for a prime example)

    Instead I think Trion should consider the things players enjoy most about Rift, the things you might talk about with your friends after, and focus on making more of those moments happen. These days, unless you play a lot, you're grinding your *** off just to get close to capping your marks, and you can forget about playing an alt.

    This isn't complicated, and it's worth considering.
    Reaching the weekly cap for marks… what an amusing concept. I doubt I even get half of the cap accomplished before the end of the week. That would be an issue if I cared about maximizing my gear progression. As it stands, the daily charges and the four weekly quests I routinely accomplish are enough for me. Trion's efforts to get me involved in more content is working as far as it got me to do IAs and zone events for the weekly quests and Void Stones.

    Getting more marks via NTEs and raids is not worth the effort and time-away-from-the-warfronts for me. The end result is slower gear progression. And yet I am probably one of the happiest PvP players in the game right now, so I feel I am making the right decision.

    That said, daily/weekly/repeatable quests provide not only rewards, but structure. It is these quests that get people out of the cities and into the various content 'grinding' away, and keeps them from getting bored despite the many activities they can engage themselves in. More structure is a good thing as it provides the motivation, and that motivation and subsequent success leads to feelings of accomplishment and 'fun' for a great deal of people.
    Last edited by Nefelia; 03-16-2015 at 08:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nefelia View Post
    I'll be honest here: this quote pisses me off a great deal.

    If it is possible to fail your way to rewards, then that is only because Trion makes it possible to do so. How difficult is it to spot people who have near-zero damage/healing/CC done over a persiod of three or so matches and hit them with an extended 'Ascended Disgrace' debuff?

    Alternatively, how difficult is it to implement effort-based rewards? I started a suggestion topic for PvP repeatable quests that would (modestly) reward PvP players based on their accomplishments and activities in PvP and at least partially solve the problem. Give rewards for effort and not just wins and the problem will be solved entirely.
    I couldn't agree with you more. That quote are the words handed down straight from Daglar.

    They are obviously perfectly able and willing to make raids extremely hard....one shotted if you don't have spiderman reaction to environmental dangers. And they just as happily lock several good gear rewards behind defeating those raids.

    Yet when it comes to PVP...they refuse to lock anything behind skill. then they admit themselves that people can fail to the top. The defeatist attitude almost jumps out from the words. If failing to the top is bad, please gate some sort of reward behind skill.

    They're maintaining one the strangest collective thought processes I've ever seen. But so be it, I still love the game.....I just chalk it up to majority rule of PVEers amongst the Devs, along with no desire to make people work harder in PVP, similar to the way we have to in PVE.
    Last edited by Stormchild; 03-16-2015 at 09:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nefelia View Post
    I'll be honest here: this quote pisses me off a great deal.

    If it is possible to fail your way to rewards.
    You can fail your way to rewards but the incentive to do so is not there like it was in SL or prior. I don't really know why this dev would even bring it up. YOU CAN'T force a players to press keys if they don't want to so you can't get rid of players choosing not to participate. The system in place deals with the AFKer in a well manner by making the incentives worthless. Gear you get from the the RNG is worth 1 silver. You can get less than 2 plat for winning and let us even say the average is 1 win per hour afk. You can farm 50-100plat in mats in the same time.

    Now let us consider that you need to actually bot or script to emulate moving to actually afk to be rewarded since if you stand in one place too long you get kicked from match so if this is the reason then they need better anti cheat and hack protection.

    Also, the removed cq power.. Pretty much the number 1 reason to AFK in CQ.


    So why is AFKING still being mentioned a lot by devs? I asked what is the top reward you get from afking and it is still RANKING AND PRESTIGE. So the only thing I can see them doing is somehow try to tie ranking and prestige to ELO and making ranks go up and down. This is an enormous project that has no real impact on the player experience.
    Last edited by Planetx; 03-17-2015 at 02:14 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Planetx View Post
    So why is AFKING still being mentioned a lot by devs? I asked what is the top reward you get from afking and it is still RANKING AND PRESTIGE.
    Actually the top reward is Abyssal Crusader Marks and Fragments of Horror, which you can use to buy raid level gear. AFKing your way through a CQ win nets you 600 of the later. If you can manage to AFK your way through enough wins for Guns another 600. You could probably just throw a Raid buff up in some WFs and AFK you way to the Carnage.

    Change the quests so they are not able to be completed by someone who AFKs and it would go a long way to changing the behavior.

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    "PvP is a special challenge because it's possible to fail your way to rewards. Log in and AFK enough and you'll earn something. Incentivizing that behavior leads to more AFKers in Warfronts which I think we can all agree is a bad thing."


    that makes me wonder why they made all theses changes to the gear system.really if all one has to do is jump into a wf or cq and afk your way to gear.why talk about/make changes claiming new players do not have a chance against geared players or the gear gap is to big ect.why is it even an issue when a player/s can just afk until they get gear then show off their skill.

    did this gear change bring in more players to pvp or did it bring in more afkers?if you say the latter then your more or less saying the gear change did not really fix anything.one would think that the powers that be would spend time/$ on fixing this whole "afk your way to gear thing" instead of making matters worse,then again what do i know.
    Last edited by butkus; 03-17-2015 at 07:04 AM.
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    Well I still don't see how winning wf = rewards

    In most other games personal reward > team reward for pvp (that's what keeps players playing)
    Meaning if you are top healer/top dps you dont have to get mad at the people dragging you down because you know you are doing objectives etc..
    A system like this will push ppl away from afkin cuz even if they win while afk they won't get much reward because they didn't do anything to achieve any reward.

    It would be good to put a reward for wining however like let's say a x1.2 modifier to your score for winning but nothing game breaker (meaning you can lose and still feel like an awesome player that you are)

    With all things said the fact that pvp has been without much input from devs (they just put skill modifiers from pve and call it a day) tells us that even these simple tweaks will not happen anytime soon as they do not care for pvp, yet however they make quests to make you grind this part of the game they do not take time engineering.

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    Intelligent people would consider this a problem:
    Due to flawed reward systems, people end up spending a big chunk of their gaming time doing things that don't interest them.
    This creates a big chunk of the problems everyone is talking out.
    Fusscle of Cheat Engine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tollwutig View Post
    Actually the top reward is Abyssal Crusader Marks and Fragments of Horror, which you can use to buy raid level gear. AFKing your way through a CQ win nets you 600 of the later. If you can manage to AFK your way through enough wins for Guns another 600. You could probably just throw a Raid buff up in some WFs and AFK you way to the Carnage.

    Change the quests so they are not able to be completed by someone who AFKs and it would go a long way to changing the behavior.
    You don't have to contribute AT ALL in warfronts to get kills towards carnage quest and wins towards guns quest. In CQ you at least have to be in the vicinity of the kill to get it count. In warfronts you can literally sit in spawn jumping around to get all credits, you don't even have to throw a raidbuff.

    There would be much less AFKing if kills worked like in CQ but apparently it's a design choice Trion made and now they're using it as an excuse...

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    Quote Originally Posted by hopp View Post
    You don't have to contribute AT ALL in warfronts to get kills towards carnage quest and wins towards guns quest. In CQ you at least have to be in the vicinity of the kill to get it count. In warfronts you can literally sit in spawn jumping around to get all credits, you don't even have to throw a raidbuff.

    There would be much less AFKing if kills worked like in CQ but apparently it's a design choice Trion made and now they're using it as an excuse...
    yeah I've never AFked so wasn't sure of the range on kill counts.

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    Yeah I really only enjoy the pvp ... more so when I see a few of the better players on the opposing team and then you know its ON!

    Sadly with the way the Q, Gear, and overall stepchild treatment pvp has been getting of late its seems more and more people are gone. The super fun great matches are fewer and fewer, and farther and farther in between.

    I will not do raid content, no desire too, so at whatever point raid gear becomes the dominant factor in PVP I guess it will be time to move on.

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    It's the bads, the bad rewards, the bad maps, the bad matchups, and the bad "joined a fail team at the last minute", that now make me afk.

    Trion, make PVP enjoyable and rewarding again, that's how you fix AFK.
    Last edited by Kimatsu; 03-18-2015 at 04:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimatsu View Post
    It's the bads, the bad rewards, the bad maps, the bad matchups, and the bad "joined a fail team at the last minute", that now make me afk.

    Trion, make PVP enjoyable and rewarding again, that's how you fix AFK.
    Exactly. Increasing point gains a couple patches ago made matches a lot shorter. If you join a match that is already like 300:600 then you have basicly no time to change that no matter how hard you try. There's basicly no point in trying, and since the match will be over in like 3 minutes, the logical thing to do is jump around in spawn and wait it out even if your team has the advantage after teams filled up, because there's simply no time for it to matter.

    I like shorter matches but they really should postpone the start if team sizes are not even or there is only 5 people in each teams in a 15v15 map.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimatsu View Post
    It's the bads, the bad rewards, the bad maps, the bad matchups, and the bad "joined a fail team at the last minute", that now make me afk.

    Trion, make PVP enjoyable and rewarding again, that's how you fix AFK.
    Nah when you get put into those completely hopeless matches (800 point spread 1 min remaining) don't AFK, go die a few times lower your kdr and ELO then be placed in a match against an opponent who is actually much worse than you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tollwutig View Post
    Actually the top reward is Abyssal Crusader Marks and Fragments of Horror, which you can use to buy raid level gear. AFKing your way through a CQ win nets you 600 of the later. If you can manage to AFK your way through enough wins for Guns another 600. You could probably just throw a Raid buff up in some WFs and AFK you way to the Carnage.

    Change the quests so they are not able to be completed by someone who AFKs and it would go a long way to changing the behavior.
    Abyssal Marks are capped every week for me usually without having to do carnage or cq kills. Fragments don't cause you to afk constantly since it is weekly and daily. It doesn't keep players afking. The only thing that kept players afking for long periods of time was Prestige and Ranking tied to gear in SL and pre SL.

    And by the way you can throw yourself into a sea of red because of awful matchmaking but most people will opt to not participate or just leave or take the loss. That is not AFKing. Seems like you and Kronos share the same mind on this.

    What the dev is saying and I hope he meant this, is that he doesn't want the incentives to be so great that it rewards players from afking in pvp which right now it is absolutely the best it has ever been to neuter the afker in the entirety of Rift existence.
    Last edited by Planetx; 03-18-2015 at 10:30 AM.

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