+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2
Results 16 to 22 of 22
Like Tree13Likes

Thread: thoughts and suggestions

  1. #16
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    7,237

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Foolio View Post
    Seaport most of it, except the bonuses for accolades. There are certain very viable specs (eg defiler) which are incapable of popping savior and juggernaut is almost always the result of pocket healing and the whole enemy team tabtargeting.

    Equally you can play dominator and harass/shutdown 2 healers who have no clue what they're doing and get nothing whilst denying the enemy team a lot more.
    I totally agree that introducing a reward system will be challenging for a lot of souls. not everything that is worth doing is easy. Rifts soul system is a fantastic feature of the game, but it also makes it orders of magnitude more complicated than many other MMOs.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlwaysHealNeverDie View Post
    I disagree with almost everything...
    I support your right to be wrong about almost everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  2. #17
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    110

    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    I happen to agree with Trions stance on premades and the queue.
    where I see the problem is that good players - in particular premades of good players - are currently matched against bad players.
    my suggestion of grouping the player pool based on their ELO ranking would hopefully reduce the problem of elite premades vs bads without having to remove the elite premades from the queue. they simply wouldn't be matched against each other.
    .
    Whoa whoa. Ok maybe i misunderstood you, honestly. But my concern was more with what I originally quoted...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    apply a handicap to premades when they are matched against pugs (not needed when its premade vs premade).
    the easiest method would simply have each premade player "fill" two warfront player slots, giving the pug team a numerical advantage.
    If the plan is to use ELO on premades and that "numerical advantage" isn't at play, well then that's great! My concern was using a brush that was too broad to address the complexity of the classic premade dilemma, not ELO. If it's Just ELO then we're much more on the same page.

    The issue with numerical advantages is that it becomes exceedingly difficult to balance that. ELO ratings are tough enough to get accurate as it is. But when you start talking about removing whole warm bodies, that makes the ELO accuracy start to become extraordinarily difficult because now you have to start counting the mathematics of discrete tanking sources, discrete hps sources, and discrete dps sources. Remember how I said no player single-handedly owns their performance numbers? That because in a game where body count counts for so much, you have to appreciate that the whole is much greater than the sum of it's parts. New opportunities/strategies based on synergies, increased distractions, increased mobility, etc. The math goes on and on. And these things don't even take a competent premade! they rise quite naturally from basic logistics and human psychology. I would highly suggest to not mess with the number of warm bodies.... ASSUMING that's what you were referring to.

    However, let's go back to ELO. To keep things fun, my "devils advocate" to the ELO would be this:

    ELO is great just as long as the system doesn't do this... "Well, it's been 2 whole minutes and I can't seem to put together a group that has even half the ELO of this premade so let's just do the best we can and get this thing going. I mean the population isn't sufficient right now. What else are we to do? It's going to be 1-sided match, but whatever, let's get it going"

    ... As opposed to "ok this premade's ELO is much too high to match up right now, so let's exclude them until the population provides a group that can match them. In the meantime, let's let the lower denominators get on with the most fair game that is available given the current selection of players". Of course if the premade wants to break up to lower their denominator, then they can join too anytime they want or they can continue to wait it out for a denominator that more closely approximates them.

    As damaging as it is to the social structure to keep the premade from playing, it's even more damaging to create a match that's over before it begins, regardless of any amount or skill/strategy employed by the underdog's. That disheartening event is what creates almost all of the toxicity against premades and causes so many players to get upset with Rift pvp and leave the game.

    Sure, it's going to happen with or without premades. The ELO system isn't going to be perfect and eventually time spent waiting has to trump ELO disparity, but it's going to happen a whole lot less without premades being allowed to lopside matches so easily.

    Don't get me wrong. AT LEAST Half the people blaming the game as they leave are just not very good at Rift in general and you simply can't save them. But there's a good chunk who leave on grounds that are actually pretty solid, toxicity of premades being one of them.

    Now, having a group of casuals who want to play together. A social premade as some have put it, would be no problem. They'll fit in very nicely with the ELO system. But the elite ones who don't want their unfair advantage taken away, are not going to be happy with the queue times.

    off the "devil's advocate for a moment", here's my concession:

    The surefire way is too separate pugs from premades entirely. However, if an ELO system that is accurate can be implemented successfully, especially with a lower population, i would definitely agree that that is the better solution. Just so long as the matchmaker doesn't give way to ELO disparities on the basis of time spent waiting too aggressively.

  3. #18
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    7,237

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mintyman View Post
    Whoa whoa. Ok maybe i misunderstood you, honestly. But my concern was more with what I originally quoted...



    If the plan is to use ELO on premades and that "numerical advantage" isn't at play, well then that's great! My concern was using a brush that was too broad to address the complexity of the classic premade dilemma, not ELO. If it's Just ELO then we're much more on the same page.

    The issue with numerical advantages is that it becomes exceedingly difficult to balance that. ELO ratings are tough enough to get accurate as it is. But when you start talking about removing whole warm bodies, that makes the ELO accuracy start to become extraordinarily difficult because now you have to start counting the mathematics of discrete tanking sources, discrete hps sources, and discrete dps sources. Remember how I said no player single-handedly owns their performance numbers? That because in a game where body count counts for so much, you have to appreciate that the whole is much greater than the sum of it's parts. New opportunities/strategies based on synergies, increased distractions, increased mobility, etc. The math goes on and on. And these things don't even take a competent premade! they rise quite naturally from basic logistics and human psychology. I would highly suggest to not mess with the number of warm bodies.... ASSUMING that's what you were referring to.
    the way the old queue system I was referring to worked, was that is used a ranking method when it could, but didn't bother when it couldn't. and even if a match started out ranked (say if ten highly ranked players were queued - five a side), if more players joined the queue who were out side that matches rank range, the match would lose its ranked status in order to add those new players to the teams.

    if a premade was in the queue and there were not enough high ELO players to make a ranked match, it would create an unranked match giving the pug team a numerical advantage.

    if the premade was in the queue and there were enough high ELO players to create a ranked match, then it would create a ranked match, little need for a numerical advantage. five random high ELO players should know the maps, their classes, and how to play well enough to provide a fair match for a premade. (still an advantage to the premade, imo)

    if the premade was in the queue, and there were enough high ELO players to create a match, then it would create a ranked match. if additional low ELO players were to then join the queue, the match would lose its ranked status and the new players would be added to the teams, weighting the numbers in the pug teams favour (now the advantage might swing away from the premade).


    there is little need to start counting up discreet hps/dps/tank sources, because every single player is potentially any one of those things. they might not be right now, but that can change at the click of a button.
    pug players who have a suitably high ELO such that they are considered a fair match for a premade will be more likely - when grouped together and seeing they are facing a premade - to adjust themselves into what they consider the most viable combination. dps players will switch to heals if they think it necessary. it is one of the marks of a good player in rift that they are competent at a variety of roles and change roles to suit the needs of the moment.


    my reason for suggesting using the ELO system was not at all intended to address the premade issue (though it can include it).
    the reason for suggesting it was to use it as a means of sifting out the general queue population, creating strata where players are matched against those of the same general skill level.
    the old system used the Prestige rank to do this. prestige did not actually measure skill, but rather time played (experience).
    ELO can incorporate elements of both skill and experience (it still takes time to rise to a high ELO, or to sink to a low score).
    the current system throws everyone in together, and I don't see that as creating a fun experience for anyone, high or low, pug or premade. if you were to kick the premades out of the current system, it still wouldn't be fun for everyone. because the premades aren't actually the problem. they never have been. matches without a single premade on either side are painful for all involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  4. #19
    Sword of Telara
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    888

    Default

    Actually, regarding matchmaking:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    The change I would suggest would be to replace the old Prestige measure and replace it with the Hidden ELO ranking.
    this would result in better players (higher ELO rank) being matched against other better players for closer, more challenging games, and would greatly reduce the tears of the not so highly ranked players over getting farmed by players they could never hope to stand against.
    I really want to see this. The current system doesn't reward playing well. It just rewards playing lots: if you play well you'll get thrown on teams of progressively worse players until you lose, and if you play badly you get thrown on teams of better players until you win. And that just seems wrong.

    Maybe with this premades will have to fight the best that pugs have to offer. Whilst still not entirely fair it's a lot better than what we have to deal with at the moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    I would also like to see ELO mechanics put in place to greatly reduce the ELO ranking of AFKers and Quitters, sufficient to drop their ranking (and therefore their "ranked match" grouping) far below that of even the least skilled active player. essentially dropping all the dead weight down to their own level where no one else need be bothered by them again.
    Not sure about this.

    What if:
    1) You d/c in a game and it ends before you reconnect. The game treats that as a desertion. You can't not count this as you could pull out your network cable instead of quitting conventionally.
    2) You have to leave a match because something needs your attention IRL: doorbell, phone, whatever.
    3) You love killing incompetent players. You can leave and then work your way up into the genuine "bad player" bracket, in which you'll roflstomp everything.
    4) You can get somebody to leave loads and lower a premade's total ELO so everyone in the premade can win every single time.

    By all means, throw quitters into their own little world for a little while, but if you muck around with ELOs then it'll cause other issues and possibly hit innocent players too.
    Last edited by Foolio; 01-06-2015 at 11:02 AM.

  5. #20
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    7,237

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Foolio View Post
    .
    Not sure about this.

    What if:
    1) You d/c in a game and it ends before you reconnect. The game treats that as a desertion. You can't not count this as you could pull out your network cable instead of quitting conventionally.
    2) You have to leave a match because something needs your attention IRL: doorbell, phone, whatever.
    3) You love killing incompetent players. You can leave and then work your way up into the genuine "bad player" bracket, in which you'll roflstomp everything.
    4) You can get somebody to leave loads and lower a premade's total ELO so everyone in the premade can win every single time.

    By all means, throw quitters into their own little world for a little while, but if you muck around with ELOs then it'll cause other issues and possibly hit innocent players too.
    you're points are valid, and I have considered them (particularly as my own connection has been a bit dodgy in the past few weeks, twice resulting in disgrace debuffs).
    i'll try to take the time tomorrow to address them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  6. #21
    Rift Master Grrrrl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    613

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by asianguywithacamera View Post
    Not even a minion?!
    Nope! Plat and bounties
    Grl / Grrrl / Grrrrl / Grrrrrl @Deepwood <Hello Kitty> Grrrrl / Grl @Zaviel and probably more...

    RETIRED

  7. #22
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    7,237

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Foolio View Post
    Not sure about this.

    What if:
    1) You d/c in a game and it ends before you reconnect. The game treats that as a desertion. You can't not count this as you could pull out your network cable instead of quitting conventionally.
    I would not suggest that a single disgrace debuff be enough to drop you to the bottom of the heap.
    while the ELO reduction should be significant, it should also be recoverable from a single reduction, and require multiple disgraces from a repeat offender (Perhaps the penalty could multiply if repeated within a certain time span.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Foolio View Post
    2) You have to leave a match because something needs your attention IRL: doorbell, phone, whatever.
    much the same as above, except that with soul recall, you essentially get one free out every hour.

    Quote Originally Posted by Foolio View Post
    3) You love killing incompetent players. You can leave and then work your way up into the genuine "bad player" bracket, in which you'll roflstomp everything.
    your roflstomping would see you rise again pretty quickly. this is the one I have the most trouble responding too. maybe there could be something in place that flags a player if their ELO yoyo's too much, and then... no idea what to do about it. I'd be happy to see them banned from Rift, but I'm not sure many would agree with me. (I'd be happy to see the repeat AFKers and quitters banned too).

    Quote Originally Posted by Foolio View Post
    4) You can get somebody to leave loads and lower a premade's total ELO so everyone in the premade can win every single time.
    set the premades total ELO as the highest ELO in the group multiplied by the number of players in the group, rather than the sum of the members' ELO.
    personally, I don't think there are enough premades, and certainly not enough skilled premades, for this to be a problem.
    most of the time, when premades are matched against each other, they are the only two premades in the queue.
    the losing premade soon disbands if it finds itself repeatedly being matched against the stronger premade.

    Quote Originally Posted by Foolio View Post
    By all means, throw quitters into their own little world for a little while, but if you muck around with ELOs then it'll cause other issues and possibly hit innocent players too.
    I'd rather throw AFKers out an airlock, but this is frowned upon (also, mostly not even an option, space travel is not at a stage for the out of hand tossing of undesirables out of airlocks to be a thing yet).

    I'd argue that the current system already hits innocent players pretty hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts