What fair mechanics is and what is the most gimped skill in the game is it stealth?

[SpellwarriorX]

Well if Trion ever bothers to fix some pretty obvious flawed stuff in combat such as spammable purges/knock backs, doms (having all the draining abilities you'd possibly ever need in 1 soul),warrior (delete pull/ tone down snare/way of the mountain/spammable charges), ensuring melee has more breaks/self utility than ranged (cause more exposure to damage,curses,cc etc ) and finally it is questionable whether you must be a ranged soul to be able to cc from a distance range ( range usually is able to do it from 35m). I find the recent mage changes questionable with skills such as ride the wind given to them. Logically speaking I believe such a skill should be given to melee souls. I believe, currently ,melee is only viable atm if there are somehow overpowered or broken in their skill set in some manner. Not to mention there are a lot of melee unfriendly skills. Well it may be useless mentioning all this, but it would be nice if combat mechanics were fairer in the future.

Finally to my main point, I do think stealth is the most gimped skill in the game and it should be changed for how it works in pvp. We all know slip-away has been a big problem and is if not the most controversial (broken) skill, then one of the most in regards to pvp. Without this problem fixed, scenarios such as ow will always favor rogues, as well as in domination maps or ganking in general. I was thinking if a rogue uses stealth, it must be used 3 seconds beforehand before you're able to be fully stealth-ed. To see when a rogue uses stealth there should be an animation for when slip-away occurs (maybe a fade-away animation). Otherwise, there could be stealth detection. I would propose at least 1 class gets the detection skill and if I had to choose that class it would be mages. They should have a skill called mystic eyes or w/e that works for a set duration of time on cd. Well anyway these are just my thoughts of how some mechanics can be improved or fairer.

Feedback would be appreciated. What do you think what should be left alone or changed? My personal opinion is class/soul balance is ludicrous with how the mechanics and how matchmaking works. So far the balance in pvp works by the amount of qq in the forum, which I find really sad. I also didn't mention that healing mechanics should also be fixed ie. crosshealing, though these days I hardly see any people want to heal so /shrug.

[Morwath]

!votes Stealth detection for support for each class.

[TedO]

Personally I think warriors should have some measure of stealth detection, at the least then, it should also be within melee range, freedom to SA so easily should at least on balance has some form of hard counter.

[Nasacrim]

Finally a constructive thread about stealth on pvp.
Damage output is deeply related with stealth for sins, you break it with "on stealth" abilities to proc damage bonus and a few other things.
Lets take a look at slip away. Nothing op here, a restealth that doesnt break for 3 seconds that reapplies "on stealth" abilities and procs cloak and dagger, among other things. It should be used for this and with the purpose of an offensive cd, any rogue doing otherwise, like saving it for an escape, better reroll or start thinking why is he playing assassin. Its to kill a target, not to find one, fail hard, and slip away.

Now, the issue doesnt lie in slip away itself, it comes from hidden veil, that extends the immunity of stealt to damage to 18 seconds. It should be extended it by 3 seconds, tops.

The other problem is permastealth. To start with, permastealth is not useful for anything. Its a bad mechanic that promotes passive gameplay when you should take an active role when playing a top tier dps spec like assassin.
Rogues that camp a flag with permastealth and stay there indefinitly are hurting their team. They would be far more valuable if they were defending the area around the objective they are holding and participating in skirmishes on and off of stealth instead of afk flag capping one place, sometimes doing nothing at all.

Sometimes you end up having two assassins on your team capping vault on dex and arguing with eachother to get away from that place, since they can hold it alone. Every damn week. I could do the same, but im wayy more efective at holding vault, while scouting statue and intercept ppl in between those places.

[asianguywithacamera]

A stealthed rogue will briefly flash on screen if you walk by them. Spam your aoe and if they don't have hidden veil up, they'll be visible.

If people learn about the mechanics of stealth, they'll stop qqing so much.

Ianto Jones rogue qq in 5...4....3....2...

[dongaconda]

A stealthed rogue will briefly flash on screen if you walk by them. Spam your aoe and if they don't have hidden veil up, they'll be visible.

If people learn about the mechanics of stealth, they'll stop qqing so much.

Ianto Jones rogue qq in 5...4....3....2...

And if you have no aoe ?

[Caldern]

A stealthed rogue will briefly flash on screen if you walk by them. Spam your aoe and if they don't have hidden veil up, they'll be visible.

If people learn about the mechanics of stealth, they'll stop qqing so much.

Ianto Jones rogue qq in 5...4....3....2...

If I'm within an inch of a rogue to get that temporary flicker, then hasn't stealth already accomplished its goal? Even if I hit them with aoe immediately, they'll still get their opener and cloak and dagger.

A big mistake with SL pvp was eliminating the stealth detection abilities from the game entirely.

[Otts]

Speak for yourself please. There's nothing OP in Slip Away, even if you use one you are becoming useless, there's no self healing or dps while you stand or run stealthed. It can be annoying if you cant kill your target but there's nothing OP in it. I wouldnt mind if Trion would change it in to self buff which cannot be purged and provide immunity to knock backs + extend c&d duration by 5s. (c&d itself can be purged)

Long stealth duration is needed in both, pve and pvp.

In PvE you can run through plenty of mobs (since Sin cant cleave and killing them 1 by 1 would take forever, especially for the new and undergeared players).

In PvP it's needed to avoid being targeted too early and purged to the point where you can't fulfil the role anymore.

I could agree about removing perma stealth if at least one of the 3 poisons become unpurgable or purges and passive knock backs get big nerf.


The only thing which i would like being changed is perma snare from D.poison. It should be replaced with self movement speed boost instead. The reason for such change is relation between you, your target and your teammates. If you slow someone it will not only help you chase or run away from someone, it will also help your whole team chase that target, while self movement speed affect only you and doesnt help your team to catch the target which gives enemy a chance to avoid getting hit by whole zerg.

[dday]

Stealth needs to last 30 seconds. Hv needs to be removed, slip away needs to have its cd reduced to 45 secs. Boom I balanced rogue

[Aveleys]

Physician needs to be buffed.

[Nasacrim]

Long stealth duration is needed in both, pve and pvp.

In PvE you can run through plenty of mobs (since Sin cant cleave and killing them 1 by 1 would take forever, especially for the new and undergeared players).

In PvP it's needed to avoid being targeted too early and purged to the point where you can't fulfil the role anymore.

Permastealth is pointless. Ill give you examples: PvE wise, i can skip all the mobs within 30 seconds of stealth (Bladedancer) on the hive chronicle before the 1st boss. Thats 5, 6 packs, about 20 mobs. You can also just mount up and simply slip away before the boss.
For all the chronicles, soloing them, I go from boss to boss without touching any trash mobs. Mobs with stealth detection? Run through them, slip away, they reset.

Regarding PvP, 30 seconds is more than enough to chose your target, walk up to him and let your openner go. Do your team a favor and dont be innactive for more than 30 seconds if you are doing so.

Permastealth is a bad mechanic that promotes passive and lazy gameplay.

[Nasacrim]

Stealth needs to last 30 seconds. Hv needs to be removed, slip away needs to have its cd reduced to 45 secs. Boom I balanced rogue

Hidden veil cannot be removed. When you pull a boss, sometimes there is imminent raid aoe and damage going on, and it would just destroy the opener. Its wayyy overtuned, but it serves a purpose, should be 2 3 seconds, not lol 15.

[Nasacrim]

!votes Stealth detection for support for each class.

Just saw this. Partially disagree.
You have 1 class with 1 soul heavily reliant on stealth, so the balanced thing to do would give the stealth detection to 1 class.

4 classes, one reliant on stealth.
4 classes, one detects stealth.

[Otts]

Permastealth is pointless. Ill give you examples: PvE wise, i can skip all the mobs within 30 seconds of stealth (Bladedancer) on the hive chronicle before the 1st boss. Thats 5, 6 packs, about 20 mobs. You can also just mount up and simply slip away before the boss.
For all the chronicles, soloing them, I go from boss to boss without touching any trash mobs. Mobs with stealth detection? Run through them, slip away, they reset.

Regarding PvP, 30 seconds is more than enough to chose your target, walk up to him and let your openner go. Do your team a favor and dont be innactive for more than 30 seconds if you are doing so.

Permastealth is a bad mechanic that promotes passive and lazy gameplay.

What if i dont use 11+ points in bd sub soul and im fresh lvl60 in blues trying to gear in chronicles before SLE? Those have less than 20k max hp and even with 150% mount you will die very quickly when you try to run past all the adds.

Chronicles also are not the only solo content in the game. When i was doing some story quest in Seratos or Morban i run through some places with nearly endless tunnels and rooms. There's no way i could make it with 30s stealth or tank the mobs in greens and blues. (new players dont start the game with torvan essences that give 50+ endurance each) no dream orbs or faction runes either.

In PvP 30s is nowhere close to reach your target, you will have to use it somewhere close which puts you in the risk of getting in to combat and then you cant use stealth anymore (which ruin whole point of stealth). Even if you manage to use it somewhere near your target you will have max 10-15s to use your cds which greatly limit your options to attack, because it usually takes time for players to split or lose enough attention to surprise them with stealth attack.


30s stealth makes sense on NB because of 20m attacks (from stealth and normal) + a lot higher burst compared to Sin. Sin isn't bursty soul, it's dps soul with all stealth attacks being melee (some are even useless like Assassinate). This is why Sin needs more than 30s stealth to find good moment to attack.

Basically in case of NB the biggest surprise is the high burst itself (you will most likely see him either on the field or mini map (if you have vials) before he uses stealth. It will be even more noticeable when you mark him. While the surprise of Sin attack doesnt come as much from burst as from the attack itself, because they have more time to chose the right moment.


I was thinking if Sin could work in different form of stealth and reworked stealth attacks to make it less annoying for other callings, but after talking with lot's of rogues most of them doesnt want any changes to it, because they find current stealth very climatic for the class and play style of Assassin fit it perfectly.

AE attacks are imho great counter to pop the stealth or veil and from that point (if veil wasnt on cd) you will see those sneaky Assassin on the mini map (if you have the vial). Running near them will also trigger the specific sound and since Elusiveness cannot be kept up all the time + it last only 5s, so if you change your direction of running you can easily surprise them before they activate it.


Stealth changes would require changes to stealth attacks and all the purgable survivality + dps cds. You can be 100% sure rogues will moan about it, since there's plenty of rogues who cant even make current specs work and you are trying to make it harder. Multiple amount of bad rogues (i think the most popular calling, at least before Pyro buffs) by the amount of tickets they will spam whenever they get killed, especially now with Pyro 2 shoting all the 20k hp ones.

[Nasacrim]

What if i dont use 11+ points in bd sub soul and im fresh lvl60 in blues trying to gear in chronicles before SLE? Those have less than 20k max hp and even with 150% mount you will die very quickly when you try to run past all the adds.

Its not a subsoul. its 61 BD with 12 sin and 3 NB. Skip everything with 30 seconds stealth. And before you say it, the stealth is not slowed, costs you 1point.
I was a fresh 60 with my mage and had 16k hp, while running harb with a 110% mount alowing me to skip all those mobs in the chronicles and use the harb skill to restealth that breaks on damage. Still do it. And im doing chronicles since before i had 300 hit. Everyday at least on my rogue..

Chronicles also are not the only solo content in the game. When i was doing some story quest in Seratos or Morban i run through some places with nearly endless tunnels and rooms. There's no way i could make it with 30s stealth or tank the mobs in greens and blues. (new players dont start the game with torvan essences that give 50+ endurance each) no dream orbs or faction runes either.

L2p. You can stealth everything. You can also see when your stealh is about to fall off, get close to a mob, stun him for 45 seconds, and restealth, if there are no safe spots to do it.

In PvP 30s is nowhere close to reach your target, you will have to use it somewhere close which puts you in the risk of getting in to combat and then you cant use stealth anymore (which ruin whole point of stealth). Even if you manage to use it somewhere near your target you will have max 10-15s to use your cds which greatly limit your options to attack, because it usually takes time for players to split or lose enough attention to surprise them with stealth attack.

You can do it in every single wf. You star from a safe respawm spot and unless you are stealthing at the respawn, which is rly dumb to do, 30 seconds in an eternity to pick your target and get to it

Anyway, with all this said, i do believe assassin should have more than 30 seconds of stealth, behing so reliant on it. Anywhere between 1 min and 40 seconds should be k.

@dday 45 seconds on slip away break the alignement with raid cds. 1 min.