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Thread: Improving CQ and premades balance in PvP. (constructive suggestion)

  1. #46
    Ascendant dday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tohrid View Post
    Ive said it before, we get that some of you guys don't like CQ. But we all know that Trion isn't getting rid of it and will do what they can to get people to play it. Why not look at what can be done to improve it so it isn't so bad for you rather than endlessly berating ideas on it. It's not going away and trion will continue to add things to it that will require pvpers to participate in it, help make it better for all rather wasting thread calling for its end. You're supposed to have these great insights into how to improve pvp. Your posting history at least says you believe you do and it would go a lot farther if it was applied towards improvements rather outright shut downs.
    There is legit nothing that could make cq fun for me with the current reward situation. I don't enjoy zerg style pvp. It's not fun. Especially with how premades work (which I'm fine with but it's luck of the draw if you aren't on a side with one).

    The thing is Im not totally against it even though sometimes I joke about deleting it etc etc etc. I just think it's wrong to make it so important and forced content. Hell Id even jump in there for 1 v 1s and what not if they didn't make it so important for all gear. If I could get the same benefits from wfs I would screw around in cq more with free time.

    It's just not something I want to waste time on especially when it's the only avenue for bis gear. More so it's almost a requirement for leveling in a timely manner

    Make wfs give out the exact same rewards and cq would be more fun by default because it wouldn't be a burden for players who hate it.

  2. #47
    Ascendant Landstalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dday View Post
    There is legit nothing that could make cq fun for me with the current reward situation. I don't enjoy zerg style pvp. It's not fun. Especially with how premades work (which I'm fine with but it's luck of the draw if you aren't on a side with one).

    The thing is Im not totally against it even though sometimes I joke about deleting it etc etc etc. I just think it's wrong to make it so important and forced content. Hell Id even jump in there for 1 v 1s and what not if they didn't make it so important for all gear. If I could get the same benefits from wfs I would screw around in cq more with free time.

    It's just not something I want to waste time on especially when it's the only avenue for bis gear. More so it's almost a requirement for leveling in a timely manner

    Make wfs give out the exact same rewards and cq would be more fun by default because it wouldn't be a burden for players who hate it.
    Lets apply that line of thought to pve. What if the gear drops from dungeons were on par with top tier raids? Same principle applies to warfronts and CQ.
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  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Landstalker View Post
    Lets apply that line of thought to pve. What if the gear drops from dungeons were on par with top tier raids? Same principle applies to warfronts and CQ.
    Cq is a joke, you can't compare it to raiding.
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  4. #49
    Plane Walker Kittyhawke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otts View Post
    CQ is mostly fine, except the daily extractor quest which encourage PUG's to attack random extractors and ruin the tactics. Daily extractor quest should be removed from Stillmoor or changed in to get "x" kills or upgrade "x" extractors instead.

    People who think CQ is bad are often the same who believe in "Elo Hell" in moba games. The match gets bad only when it's played by bad players.
    While I agree that the extractor count is counter productive, it's also one of the "safe" ways for newbies to ease into CQ. They're not invited to PMs and will most likely be farmed, so this, at least, rewards them with something for participating in CQ. Tactics? The tactics used are predominantly formulated by a bunch of school kids and armchair generals who have NO CLUE how to manage a battlefield. The leaders constantly make horrible tactical calls, and everyone just follows the lemming train straight to the slaughterhouse.

    This is true only when you try to enter CQ in the middle or at the end. Current system doesnt punish those who abandon losing sides. When you have players leaving on one side system will obviously try to balance amount of players between each side, hence new players will mostly be moved to losing side where those lazy players left to try their luck on their alts.

    Players who are scared of CQ often lack experience with mass PvP or simply have very bad experience with the mindless zerg following from one point to another for the most part. As it is, CQ power is something personal which affect only your character, but when you change it in to Guild Power it will create incentive to take it more seriously and encourage players even from small guilds to learn new specs which will indirectly improve raid setup and cooperation of players in CQ. If amount of premades will inrease there will be more spots in it even for the PUG's. It's not like everybody get's r90 by default.

    Without penalty for leaving there's no reason to improve, because reloging to alt is easier than fighting till the end and trying your best.
    Again, you're proposing punitive action against the victims who aren't able to join the dominant factions. Do you really feel it's fair to punish the people who got farmed? You're not encouraging anyone to play better, all you're doing is discouraging people from participating in CQ at all. Beyond that, how would you propose Trion deal with those people just out to complete the daily extractor quest? Some of us have multiple characters, in my case I need 48 extractors per day. Am I to be forced to do CQ 4+ times a day just to complete the daily quest?

    Vials are actually something semi-balanced so i wouldn't mind seeing more of it instead of RNG lock boxes. Rewarding guilds based on the number of their memebers in winning team will encourage people to play together and invite more players to their small guilds. Though, i can see potential abuse from it so maybe the bonus reward should scale to up to ~30 random guild memebers.

    I already suggested in OP to scale the rewards based on how long player was in the winning team, but punishment for leaving needs to be greater than staying and playing full CQ. If reloging to alt gives potentially better rewards than staying on losing side why would players bother to fight till the end and try their best?
    Do you honestly believe that adding vials will replace the RNG boxes? This is Trion we're talking about. All they'll do is add the vials to profit more off of the unnecessary grid. The RNG boxes aren't going to go away.

    This system would kill CQ participation. You propose scaling punishment, but the CQ rewards that the losing teams receive aren't cumulative, the're granted largely at the end. That's the problem with the current system. If rewards were granted periodically throughout the duration of CQ, people would receive rewards for participating. Putting all the rewards at the end of CQ created the current system which encourages people to only join at the timer.

    Despite running a lot of CQs, I dislike CQ, and I refuse to submit to being farmed. The members of the CQ guilds don't understand this because you're always on the PM teams. You're the ones victimizing others, and now you want to penalize people who are tired of getting farmed. NO.
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  5. #50
    Sword of Telara Tohrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dday View Post
    There is legit nothing that could make cq fun for me with the current reward situation. I don't enjoy zerg style pvp. It's not fun. Especially with how premades work (which I'm fine with but it's luck of the draw if you aren't on a side with one).

    The thing is Im not totally against it even though sometimes I joke about deleting it etc etc etc. I just think it's wrong to make it so important and forced content. Hell Id even jump in there for 1 v 1s and what not if they didn't make it so important for all gear. If I could get the same benefits from wfs I would screw around in cq more with free time.

    It's just not something I want to waste time on especially when it's the only avenue for bis gear. More so it's almost a requirement for leveling in a timely manner

    Make wfs give out the exact same rewards and cq would be more fun by default because it wouldn't be a burden for players who hate it.
    There isn't a little there I disagree with bro, but rather hoping it gets leveled out with regards to rewards I'm attempting to look at alternate ideas to some what make people enjoy. The first thing I would do is fix the latency issues, but you and I both know nothing there will happen. So through out different ideas to make that lag fest enjoyable is something I think we can all work on.

    Really would wish some of you guys that post alot discussing pvp would use some of you effort in making it more enjoyable rather than bucking the system cause I know it won't go your way due to trio's mindset.

    On phone sorry for typos.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Landstalker View Post
    Lets apply that line of thought to pve. What if the gear drops from dungeons were on par with top tier raids? Same principle applies to warfronts and CQ.
    haha and this is why i say stuff like delete it, in the delusional minds of some of these cq heroes they feel that cq is end game. there is a reason why you are always terrible in wfs land and its because you actually dont know how to play.

    individual skill in cq compared to wfs isnt even close, cq def has skill but its more in the line of strat and staying together/running the right specs. there is little player individual skill in any form of zerg pvp(in any game). positioning, kiting, strafing, timing cc, focusing targets all dont exist in cq on the individual level. hell melee doesnt even exist. dont get me wrong its fun to wipe a raid every now and then but its not because of personal skill.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by dday View Post
    haha and this is why i say stuff like delete it, in the delusional minds of some of these cq heroes they feel that cq is end game. there is a reason why you are always terrible in wfs land and its because you actually dont know how to play.

    individual skill in cq compared to wfs isnt even close, cq def has skill but its more in the line of strat and staying together/running the right specs. there is little player individual skill in any form of zerg pvp(in any game). positioning, kiting, strafing, timing cc, focusing targets all dont exist in cq on the individual level. hell melee doesnt even exist. dont get me wrong its fun to wipe a raid every now and then but its not because of personal skill.
    Im horrible? Least i dont que with dps and then rage when nobody heals me. My comment was in regards to gear distribution. This tirade of yours does nothing to respond in sort. You call me a CQ hero while remaining to act a scoreboard hero of warfronts. There is much more to a warfront then kb streaks and top dps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Landstalker View Post
    Im horrible? Least i dont que with dps and then rage when nobody heals me. My comment was in regards to gear distribution. This tirade of yours does nothing to respond in sort. You call me a CQ hero while remaining to act a scoreboard hero of warfronts. There is much more to a warfront then kb streaks and top dps.
    Yea I que alone and do all objectives except carry the fang or stone in library because objectives that kill you are moronic.

    Keep running those terrible dps heal hybrids and being a non factor though

  9. #54
    Rift Master EverydayAnomaly's Avatar
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    I'm not a huge CQ proponent but I have seen both sides.

    1. Pugging is awful.
    2. Going PM against PM - can be very fun. You can have some really nice matches when this happens.

    My fix: Figure out a way to re-distribute folks in raids. Pug raids rarely, if ever, have the proper makeup to be competitive, no matter how good the players are. If you could re-distribute folks within each 20 man raid on a faction to have the tanks, heals and support each one needs -- those raids would be a lot more competitve.

    If you had something like when you push Y to see your raid - but for the entire faction. That way, you could swap folks between raids to get a better makup.
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    Sword of Telara Tohrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EverydayAnomaly View Post
    I'm not a huge CQ proponent but I have seen both sides.

    1. Pugging is awful.
    2. Going PM against PM - can be very fun. You can have some really nice matches when this happens.

    My fix: Figure out a way to re-distribute folks in raids. Pug raids rarely, if ever, have the proper makeup to be competitive, no matter how good the players are. If you could re-distribute folks within each 20 man raid on a faction to have the tanks, heals and support each one needs -- those raids would be a lot more competitve.

    If you had something like when you push Y to see your raid - but for the entire faction. That way, you could swap folks between raids to get a better makup.
    I love redistribution of roles man, but it will never work because so many only care for themselves and only run none impacting roles. It sucks but it the state here and there's nothing we have control over to fix. I've been running heals all day in WFS because it's rare for people to cover part of teamwork.

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    Ascendant dday's Avatar
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    Making people que for cq would actually be worth it. Then balance around what you que for. You could always change but at least at the start you should be somewhat balanced. Then you could keep the teams fair.

    Also break it down into 10 minute ques, so you can only get in every 10 mins and only get rewarded if you are in there for at least 10 min.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by dday View Post
    Yea I que alone and do all objectives except carry the fang or stone in library because objectives that kill you are moronic.

    Keep running those terrible dps heal hybrids and being a non factor though
    My specs do exactly what I intend them to do and I certainly make more of an impact than a dps warrior frustrated that nobody will heal him in a warfront.
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  13. #58
    Rift Master EverydayAnomaly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tohrid View Post
    I love redistribution of roles man, but it will never work because so many only care for themselves and only run none impacting roles. It sucks but it the state here and there's nothing we have control over to fix. I've been running heals all day in WFS because it's rare for people to cover part of teamwork.
    True, you will still have folks that won't listen to calls, question calls or not play a spec that is not beneficial to the team but I still think if you could re-arrange raids it would be a huge quality of life improvement for pugs.

    I ran in probably about 13 or so PM's over the last two weeks on my alts. Several times, those PM's had HALF the makeup of less than p90 folks but we still won like 9 of them. That really backs your statement up - there is more to a PM than people think - a lot more coordination and team play is involved.
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  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tohrid View Post
    I love redistribution of roles man, but it will never work because so many only care for themselves and only run none impacting roles. It sucks but it the state here and there's nothing we have control over to fix. I've been running heals all day in WFS because it's rare for people to cover part of teamwork.
    Define "non impacting roles." While certain group makeups may look ideal on paper and/or in PVE, PVP is dynamic and one must have adaptability in order to overcome some challenges.

    On my mage, in CQ I recently changed to a pyro/arbiter/harbinger setup. I had someone ridicule me because my setup isn't "viable," but it works for me. When the team is getting its butt kicked in a fight, I can continue to fight because of multiple defensive skills. I took an approx 8% hit in DPS, but I can stay in combat twice as long, and with less healing support. Fact: A mage doing 90% damage for 10 minutes does more damage than a 100% mage who died in 5 minutes. When I identify one of the opposing faction "leaders," I can pull them into our group for a kill and forced respawn, efectively removing an enemy lead from battle. When melee jumps me I can melee back until they either die or try to run. All this from a "non viable" spec.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyhawke View Post
    Define "non impacting roles." While certain group makeups may look ideal on paper and/or in PVE, PVP is dynamic and one must have adaptability in order to overcome some challenges.

    On my mage, in CQ I recently changed to a pyro/arbiter/harbinger setup. I had someone ridicule me because my setup isn't "viable," but it works for me. When the team is getting its butt kicked in a fight, I can continue to fight because of multiple defensive skills. I took an approx 8% hit in DPS, but I can stay in combat twice as long, and with less healing support. Fact: A mage doing 90% damage for 10 minutes does more damage than a 100% mage who died in 5 minutes. When I identify one of the opposing faction "leaders," I can pull them into our group for a kill and forced respawn, efectively removing an enemy lead from battle. When melee jumps me I can melee back until they either die or try to run. All this from a "non viable" spec.
    If your raid had more than 4 tanks (counting you) then I would swap to something else. If not, and the spec does things like VK or War/Pally can do (I don't have Arbiter so I am not sure) then there is no reason why you can't fill that tank role in your raid. Ideally, you want a Defiler link on you because if you tank you will be focused.

    But if you are just talking damage numbers, Pyrochon, Dom and even StormCaller will probably put out a lot more damage over the course of a match while providing a lot more to the team with buffs, etc. But again, if Arbiter is a valid tank spec and your raid has that need, then by all means, you should play it.
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