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Thread: A question about questionable changes made to Rift - Will they be staying in NT?

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    Default A question about questionable changes made to Rift - Will they be staying in NT?

    There were changes made to several souls between Vanilla Rift and now that have made PvP much less enjoyable. For the most part, these involve changes to melee souls and reducing the effectiveness of CC.

    - Nearly all melee souls can do a significant percentage of their damage from range. Why do most melee souls have superior damage to ranged souls when, in some instances, they don't need to be in melee range to do high damage?
    Melee has become very simple in comparison to the way it was in Vanilla Rift as Warriors had only 2-3 ranged attacks with cooldowns and needed to be in melee while Rogues weren't able to attack with Swift Shot and proc high damage poisons. Melee souls also could not use cooldowns to grant 100% damage from range ie Para/Harb (not that harb was around back then).

    - Many souls have numerous CC breaks (Pyro looks like it will be able to have four in 2.8). The effectiveness of CC has been greatly reduced with Break Free having its cooldown significantly lowered, souls receiving extra CC breaks and the War PA tree further reducing the duration of CC.
    The result of these changes is that Rift PvP now revolves around burst damage and burst heals with CC playing a much smaller role than it should. IMO this isn't as fun as it could be.

    - Gap closers are now far too numerous. With the exception of Shaman and Blade Dancer to an extent, melee souls can not be kited by most ranged souls. Between pulls, CC breaking charges, multiple charges in single souls, movement speed boosts in melee souls, CC breaks and high damage from range, the range vs melee dynamics don't operate the way that they should.

    Most of these issues relate to the way I feel the game should work, but PvP seems to have turned into something more closely resembling the way an FPS operates; by this I mean highly mobile, fast-paced, burst orientated game-play with little strategy/skill required.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tookmyjob View Post

    Most of these issues relate to the way I feel the game should work, but PvP seems to have turned into something more closely resembling the way an FPS operates; by this I mean highly mobile, fast-paced, burst orientated game-play with little strategy/skill required.
    A fast paced, quick blow 'em up MMO is like an FPS where everyone has an aimbot and wallhacks (lol recon vials). A real FPS takes more skill than an average MMO, and this is after spending almost a decade addicted to each. Just a pragmatic assertion of the two types of games from my perspective. But for real, if you want to slow Rift down, play Quakelive for 3 days straight. Rift will feel like a slow-motion game again. This sounds silly but it's quite true.
    Last edited by Violacea; 07-01-2014 at 06:26 PM.
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    Same can be said about range, casting has been pretty much eliminated. Granted I agree with you but range has it easy too.

    I'd love to see pulls deleted though. Dumbest thing about sl. I think melee range attacks need to stay at or be reverted to 20 meters and unless you have 39 plus points in a range soul range attacks are at 20 meters. IE sp is 20 meters unless you are 39 + tempest

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    Quote Originally Posted by dday View Post
    Same can be said about range, casting has been pretty much eliminated. Granted I agree with you but range has it easy too.

    I'd love to see pulls deleted though. Dumbest thing about sl. I think melee range attacks need to stay at or be reverted to 20 meters and unless you have 39 plus points in a range soul range attacks are at 20 meters. IE sp is 20 meters unless you are 39 + tempest
    I believe they are changing the ranged side of things now, otherwise I'd have mentioned it.

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    TLDR: rift pvp is almost painful to play now.

    You're welcome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tookmyjob View Post
    I believe they are changing the ranged side of things now, otherwise I'd have mentioned it.
    Yea I just saw that, pyro looks awful

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    Quote Originally Posted by dday View Post
    Same can be said about range, casting has been pretty much eliminated. Granted I agree with you but range has it easy too.
    The changes to casters are pretty much an acknowledged mistake that's being scaled back.

    A lot of the problems that Took outlined came in response to more mobility and CC tools given to casters, which were themselves in response to souls like Marksman. It was sort of a cascading effect that resulted in Pyro and Inq becoming fully mobile and melee specs becoming fully non-kitable. Scaling casters back to their previous iterations is a necessary step toward getting things back where they need to be, and it's happening despite extensive protestations, which I think is a good sign.

    Vladd has already taken a few baby steps back from the brink on the Rogue/Warrior side with the nerf to pull ranges and Paralord. He's stated an intention to make 'sin less reliant on poisons, which implies a pretty significant redesign that will, hopefully, involve making poisons not proc on ranged attacks (and not apply passive snares). Skills like Grasp the Horizon and Phantom Blades just absolutely need to go.

    A big part of the problem with CC's diminished effectiveness was the total removal of the diminishing returns system in favour of an equality-timer immunity system. I doubt they will rework this, which is a shame.

    The devs seem amenable to total re-imaginings for the souls in NT, and Vladd understands that balance revolves around tuning souls' to have strengths and weaknesses rather than a universal ability to deal with all situations at all times, unlike previous Warrior and Rogue devs.

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    It just turned into a massive mess and I hope that vladd's recent changes are on the road to fixing that. The ease of mana regeneration is another issue that I didn't mention eariler.

    The health pools relative to the amount healing/damage done is kind of silly too. It almost makes using a stun a waste of a GCD, as using a stun potentially gives a healer the time to save someone.
    Last edited by Tookmyjob; 07-01-2014 at 07:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tookmyjob View Post
    There were changes made to several souls between Vanilla Rift and now that have made PvP much less enjoyable. For the most part, these involve changes to melee souls and reducing the effectiveness of CC.

    - Nearly all melee souls can do a significant percentage of their damage from range. Why do most melee souls have superior damage to ranged souls when, in some instances, they don't need to be in melee range to do high damage?
    Melee has become very simple in comparison to the way it was in Vanilla Rift as Warriors had only 2-3 ranged attacks with cooldowns and needed to be in melee while Rogues weren't able to attack with Swift Shot and proc high damage poisons. Melee souls also could not use cooldowns to grant 100% damage from range ie Para/Harb (not that harb was around back then).

    - Many souls have numerous CC breaks (Pyro looks like it will be able to have four in 2.8). The effectiveness of CC has been greatly reduced with Break Free having its cooldown significantly lowered, souls receiving extra CC breaks and the War PA tree further reducing the duration of CC.
    The result of these changes is that Rift PvP now revolves around burst damage and burst heals with CC playing a much smaller role than it should. IMO this isn't as fun as it could be.

    - Gap closers are now far too numerous. With the exception of Shaman and Blade Dancer to an extent, melee souls can not be kited by most ranged souls. Between pulls, CC breaking charges, multiple charges in single souls, movement speed boosts in melee souls, CC breaks and high damage from range, the range vs melee dynamics don't operate the way that they should.

    Most of these issues relate to the way I feel the game should work, but PvP seems to have turned into something more closely resembling the way an FPS operates; by this I mean highly mobile, fast-paced, burst orientated game-play with little strategy/skill required.
    I feel the CC issue you have is in place because so much of the time, players complain of "not being in control" of their character and saying that is "unfun." So they have tried to go the twitchy route. Maybe I am crazy, but I think we have balance way more established than we did in 1.0 RIFT.
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    keep in mind that for a very long time in SL ranged had such a great advantage over melee that melee was considered completely non-viable for pvp of any kind.
    much of the changes that were since made to melee (increased burst damage, dealing damage from range with a melee soul) were done to resolve this issue. removing these "questionable changes" will likely lead to a return of "go ranged or go home".

    as to why ranged was so dominant, there were a number of factors, some of which still remain.

    more ranged players than melee - while cleric/mage/rogue always had ranged options, now warrior did too (tempest) and each classes FotM souls were ranged souls. with more players playing ranged, the few melee were auto focused as ranged tab targeted them first.

    increase to passive movement speed. the effect of this cannot be understated. melee now had a much shorter time to react in when a target ran away. players simply moved further in a shorter amount of time than they did pre-SL. for most melee players, their targets were already out of melee range before they could react.

    loss of viable dps/tank hybrids. SL quickly set a tone of "go 61pts or go home", and tank souls in particular suffered savage damage nerfs (the tank tax). this was multiplied for the warrior class (the primary "visible" melee class) in that due to having not just one, but three tank souls, the mid to low tier abilities were purposely significantly weaker to keep warrior tanks from becoming too OP in pve in comparison to other classes souls.
    (another side effect of this was that all the warriors survivability talents were locked into tank souls, while other classes could get away with having such abilities in dps souls, e.g. - Twilight Transcendence).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    keep in mind that for a very long time in SL ranged had such a great advantage over melee that melee was considered completely non-viable for pvp of any kind.
    much of the changes that were since made to melee (increased burst damage, dealing damage from range with a melee soul) were done to resolve this issue. removing these "questionable changes" will likely lead to a return of "go ranged or go home".

    as to why ranged was so dominant, there were a number of factors, some of which still remain.

    more ranged players than melee - while cleric/mage/rogue always had ranged options, now warrior did too (tempest) and each classes FotM souls were ranged souls. with more players playing ranged, the few melee were auto focused as ranged tab targeted them first.

    increase to passive movement speed. the effect of this cannot be understated. melee now had a much shorter time to react in when a target ran away. players simply moved further in a shorter amount of time than they did pre-SL. for most melee players, their targets were already out of melee range before they could react.

    loss of viable dps/tank hybrids. SL quickly set a tone of "go 61pts or go home", and tank souls in particular suffered savage damage nerfs (the tank tax). this was multiplied for the warrior class (the primary "visible" melee class) in that due to having not just one, but three tank souls, the mid to low tier abilities were purposely significantly weaker to keep warrior tanks from becoming too OP in pve in comparison to other classes souls.
    (another side effect of this was that all the warriors survivability talents were locked into tank souls, while other classes could get away with having such abilities in dps souls, e.g. - Twilight Transcendence).
    All the times running to break LoS and praying the chaser was stupid enough to come in close.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    keep in mind that for a very long time in SL ranged had such a great advantage over melee that melee was considered completely non-viable for pvp of any kind.
    much of the changes that were since made to melee (increased burst damage, dealing damage from range with a melee soul) were done to resolve this issue. removing these "questionable changes" will likely lead to a return of "go ranged or go home".

    as to why ranged was so dominant, there were a number of factors, some of which still remain.

    more ranged players than melee - while cleric/mage/rogue always had ranged options, now warrior did too (tempest) and each classes FotM souls were ranged souls. with more players playing ranged, the few melee were auto focused as ranged tab targeted them first.

    increase to passive movement speed. the effect of this cannot be understated. melee now had a much shorter time to react in when a target ran away. players simply moved further in a shorter amount of time than they did pre-SL. for most melee players, their targets were already out of melee range before they could react.

    loss of viable dps/tank hybrids. SL quickly set a tone of "go 61pts or go home", and tank souls in particular suffered savage damage nerfs (the tank tax). this was multiplied for the warrior class (the primary "visible" melee class) in that due to having not just one, but three tank souls, the mid to low tier abilities were purposely significantly weaker to keep warrior tanks from becoming too OP in pve in comparison to other classes souls.
    (another side effect of this was that all the warriors survivability talents were locked into tank souls, while other classes could get away with having such abilities in dps souls, e.g. - Twilight Transcendence).
    This is why I feel like it was a lack of ability to play right and that it was warrior melee that was an issue. Rogue melee I always thought was fine, but no they buffed it up and kept ranged rather the same of nerfed. Now Rogue melee is stupidly stronger than its melee. If you played melee at a good level you should've performed close to equal as many ranged classes in PvP as far as being a viable team mate. But no, melee got all these buffs I never felt were needed and now it is obvious like a sore thumb how much better something like rogue melee is compared to MM and Ranger. Now when good players get behind a melee it's a very intense role, I think more-so than old school Marksmen.

    This is just why I think stuff was never balanced fully around what is right, and more balanced around average playing and demand. If things were balanced around capability when performed at top notch, rogue melee never needed a buff. But in this world a good player is big numbers. And people were all jealous of MM because it was a front end loaded class you can't cleanse that suffers little disconnects. It may still have not bursted as hard as existing melee, but the fact it never had to drop damage, meant it was easy to do top damage if you remain focused. Now melee have almost no disconnect, which isn't needed, and burst that you would assign to a generic melee under proper ranged/melee logistics. That is pretty much why ranged is going down the drain. But that is just IMO, I think they buffed melee when it never needed it. I think stuff becomes "OP" because it gets buffed around average performance, not top potential performance. Could be 100% wrong though anyway, just my guesses.

    A MM can still do top damage almost sometimes just because of the pure fact they suffer almost 0 disconnect and can keep firing every gcd. Even though their damage is just utter junk now. Doesn't make them great, now even with all that utility. Their damage is junk, a scoreboard means crap.
    Last edited by Violacea; 07-01-2014 at 09:14 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violacea View Post
    This is why I feel like it was a lack of ability to play right and that it was warrior melee that was an issue. Rogue melee I always thought was fine, but no they buffed it up and kept ranged rather the same of nerfed. Now Rogue melee is stupidly stronger than its melee. If you played melee at a good level you should've performed close to equal as many ranged classes in PvP as far as being a viable team mate. But no, melee got all these buffs I never felt were needed and now it is obvious like a sore thumb how much better something like rogue melee is compared to MM and Ranger. Now when good players get behind a melee it's a very intense role, I think more-so than old school Marksmen.

    This is just why I think stuff was never balanced fully around what is right, and more balanced around average playing and demand. If things were balanced around capability when performed at top notch, rogue melee never needed a buff. But in this world a good player is big numbers. And people were all jealous of MM because it was a front end loaded class you can't cleanse that suffers little disconnects. It may still have not bursted as hard as existing melee, but the fact it never had to drop damage, meant it was easy to do top damage if you remain focused. Now melee have almost no disconnect, which isn't needed, and burst that you would assign to a generic melee under proper ranged/melee logistics. That is pretty much why ranged is going down the drain. But that is just IMO, I think they buffed melee when it never needed it. I think stuff becomes "OP" because it gets buffed around average performance, not top potential performance. Could be 100% wrong though anyway, just my guesses.

    A MM can still do top damage almost sometimes just because of the pure fact they suffer almost 0 disconnect and can keep firing every gcd. Even though their damage is just utter junk now. Doesn't make them great, now even with all that utility. Their damage is junk, a scoreboard means crap.
    I feel like what you are saying here is really a mixed bag. MM were good back in the day because they could hit hard, duck out of range and get out from any focus and come back later to pound again. So flip forward a year and change and now you have all the gap closers and the rest (recharge) period is denied, and MM can be hunted down by melee. However, being in melee range usually means that most of the team is looking at you and thinking one thing: KILL! So yeah I can now catch up to your MM, but is it smart? Did I just inadvertently swallow a grenade? I feel there is a push/pull dynamic you shouldn't overlook.
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    One mistake they did was when they removed the damage from CC like stuns/debilitates and interrupts. Especially the ones that eat a global cool down.
    Last edited by Planetx; 07-01-2014 at 11:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Violacea View Post
    A MM can still do top damage almost sometimes just because of the pure fact they suffer almost 0 disconnect and can keep firing every gcd. Even though their damage is just utter junk now. Doesn't make them great, now even with all that utility. Their damage is junk, a scoreboard means crap.

    All MM really needs is the ability to carry 3 munitions and maybe a revamp so they can have a 1 minute burst .. but the current MM rotation vs. others like inq and pyro is just too easy and they need to add cast times and dots too it. It is way too simple to play and it is the top Kill Stealing spec in the game.
    Last edited by Planetx; 07-01-2014 at 11:25 PM.

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