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Thread: A question about questionable changes made to Rift - Will they be staying in NT?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violacea View Post
    This is why I feel like it was a lack of ability to play right and that it was warrior melee that was an issue. Rogue melee I always thought was fine, but no they buffed it up and kept ranged rather the same of nerfed. Now Rogue melee is stupidly stronger than its melee. If you played melee at a good level you should've performed close to equal as many ranged classes in PvP as far as being a viable team mate. But no, melee got all these buffs I never felt were needed and now it is obvious like a sore thumb how much better something like rogue melee is compared to MM and Ranger. Now when good players get behind a melee it's a very intense role, I think more-so than old school Marksmen.

    This is just why I think stuff was never balanced fully around what is right, and more balanced around average playing and demand. If things were balanced around capability when performed at top notch, rogue melee never needed a buff. But in this world a good player is big numbers. And people were all jealous of MM because it was a front end loaded class you can't cleanse that suffers little disconnects. It may still have not bursted as hard as existing melee, but the fact it never had to drop damage, meant it was easy to do top damage if you remain focused. Now melee have almost no disconnect, which isn't needed, and burst that you would assign to a generic melee under proper ranged/melee logistics. That is pretty much why ranged is going down the drain. But that is just IMO, I think they buffed melee when it never needed it. I think stuff becomes "OP" because it gets buffed around average performance, not top potential performance. Could be 100% wrong though anyway, just my guesses.

    A MM can still do top damage almost sometimes just because of the pure fact they suffer almost 0 disconnect and can keep firing every gcd. Even though their damage is just utter junk now. Doesn't make them great, now even with all that utility. Their damage is junk, a scoreboard means crap.
    MM is out. Ranger is where its at. No defense though, but sure has consistently high damage and decent burst on demand. Not as high as the highest burst, but still nice.

    Rogue melee is a mixture of stupidity to me. Just grab a defensive soul, grab sin poisons, kill almost anyone with passive playing. I really do hope they fix all this passive crap where most souls have ten lines in a macro because you can macro it all.

    Im also getting tired of the healer issues especially now because the derpiest player can now truly be in a tank spec healed by very powerful heal souls that, even after you finally kill them, they get back before you can take a tank out.

    This is truly heal wars 2.7 where going with a duel spec now wins matches due to grabbing objectives first and simply holding them with facetanking players. Despite my opinion on the physician soul it does not take away the fact most of them were bad players at actually healing since thry jumped around self healing most the game-no sense of positioning whatsoever (the soul enables bad play). Too much passives in everything from heals to tanking to dps.

    I for one would love to see some things reverted.

  2. #17
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    What is the point of allegedly scaling back on say Mage if you take the fun out of playing. Pyro will be an immobile clunky soul useless in PVP and vulnerable to anyone. If it's proposed iteration makes it to live you will see no one playing Mage in PVP.

    People need fun if they are continue to play. If you complicate the playability /rotations surviveability you will kill off the calling. Of course a lot of folks calling for changes use programable keyboards and want unwarranted complication because it's boring.

    Be careful what you wish for. What you get could be really awful and drive away folk from the game. Changes in mobility is a killer. Folks may not be able to raid in those places that call for movement. Your calling will be overlooked for those who can move and there are plenty out there.

  3. #18
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    As long as there's equal amount of good healers on both sides you wont really notice any survivality issues with turret spec. The exception is upcoming Warfront map which is like a cancer for any specs who rely on channellable abilities.

    Also lol'd at MM toping dmg, maybe when you spam AE abilities whole match and nobody focus you because they realize that you are useless while doing so.

    Ranger on the other hand have great dps on paper but in real match you can put his dps below support because everything related to his dps is purgable, from self buffs to trigger short duration buffs and even his burst dps buff.

    As long as instant cast, ranged, passive purge with no cd and 1 gcd exist most Rogues will be close to useless if there's someone who wants to use it against them. It's similar with Mages and Clerics who rely on cleanseable dots.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violacea View Post
    A fast paced, quick blow 'em up MMO is like an FPS where everyone has an aimbot and wallhacks (lol recon vials). A real FPS takes more skill than an average MMO, and this is after spending almost a decade addicted to each. Just a pragmatic assertion of the two types of games from my perspective. But for real, if you want to slow Rift down, play Quakelive for 3 days straight. Rift will feel like a slow-motion game again. This sounds silly but it's quite true.
    I'm someone that has been an Esport organizer volunteer and has had several jobs after college in the Esport industry. Most will agree FPS games back in the day were silly balance wise, did not take a great amount of skill, other than certain aim algorithms.

    MMO competitive games in today's market take a tad bit more skill than silly FPS games. RTS games and Mobas are honestly the only real difficult mechanical and intelligent based Esports left. Reason why Koreans own Starcraft 2 RTS and LOL/Dota2 markets, North Americans simply are lazy and terrible and rather play MMOs and FPS games.

    A well designed MMO will take far more skill than your FPS model. If the developer focuses on balance, MMOs will provide far more mechanics and skills to learn and use properly. FPS games are pretty straight forward and only need to learn and be aware of easy mechanics.

    Only FPS Esport making a come back is CS:GO. Every other FPS on the market is brain dead easy like COD.

    I'm just waiting for a company to make a well thought out complex MMO based on competitive pvp, whoever does that will be wealthy and popular easy.
    Last edited by DriftinARift; 07-02-2014 at 12:57 AM.

  5. #20
    Champion of Telara Stihl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DriftinARift View Post
    I'm just waiting for a company to make a well thought out complex MMO based on competitive pvp, whoever does that will be wealthy and popular easy.
    Not going to happen. Can't happen.

    First and formost one of the core components of the MMORPG genre is character progression (abilities, traits, gear, etc.) which is extremely counter productive when trying to breed proper competition. What is the one thing that all competitive activities (games, sports, etc) have in common? A level playing field. Strict and precise specifications for everything from the dimensions of the playing field, the materials equipment can be made of, even how much your footwear is allowed to weigh.

    When characters have 50% larger health pools, take 15% less damage, heal for 30% more, etc. just because they have invested more time, you are left with few options for creating the proper environment.

    Secondly, I doubt there is enough interest. RIFT has a pretty decent market share when it comes to the MMORPG genre, yet there still aren't enough players to segregate end game PvP into more balanced brackets. Even back when they placed premade groups into their own queue, wait times skyrocketed because A. most premades didn't want to fight other premades so they started queue syncing and B. there weren't enough groups. Also look at the community. Join the PvP channels. "R90 sab/phys/nb LFPM". That isn't grouping with your friends. That isn't balancing things out. These individuals are looking to get their wins for the weeklies or to farm PuGs for favor, what they are looking for is the farthest thing from competition.

    TLDR; The platform isn't conducive to a balanced, competitive environment, and there just isn't a large enough audience. Not enough people want a truly competitive MMORPG to make it sustainable.*


    * I have no evidence to support these claims, nor have I any work experience or formal education with/regarding the gaming industry. This is pure opinion based off my limited observations.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stihl View Post
    Not going to happen. Can't happen.

    First and formost one of the core components of the MMORPG genre is character progression (abilities, traits, gear, etc.) which is extremely counter productive when trying to breed proper competition. What is the one thing that all competitive activities (games, sports, etc) have in common? A level playing field. Strict and precise specifications for everything from the dimensions of the playing field, the materials equipment can be made of, even how much your footwear is allowed to weigh.

    When characters have 50% larger health pools, take 15% less damage, heal for 30% more, etc. just because they have invested more time, you are left with few options for creating the proper environment.

    Secondly, I doubt there is enough interest. RIFT has a pretty decent market share when it comes to the MMORPG genre, yet there still aren't enough players to segregate end game PvP into more balanced brackets. Even back when they placed premade groups into their own queue, wait times skyrocketed because A. most premades didn't want to fight other premades so they started queue syncing and B. there weren't enough groups. Also look at the community. Join the PvP channels. "R90 sab/phys/nb LFPM". That isn't grouping with your friends. That isn't balancing things out. These individuals are looking to get their wins for the weeklies or to farm PuGs for favor, what they are looking for is the farthest thing from competition.

    TLDR; The platform isn't conducive to a balanced, competitive environment, and there just isn't a large enough audience. Not enough people want a truly competitive MMORPG to make it sustainable.*


    * I have no evidence to support these claims, nor have I any work experience or formal education with/regarding the gaming industry. This is pure opinion based off my limited observations.

    Agree with most of what you had to say, But there is already a pvp based MMO in the works atm. Wait and see. Companies are not stupid, they see the trend of Esports in North America, best understand one is on the way, Blizzard has had Titan under raps since 2006, Hinted PVP Esport MMO upon us. MMO pvp is taboo, and something that can make a company wealthy beyond means in today's mainstream Esport market.

  7. #22
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    I have no confidence in the Kervik-Vladd dynamic wrt to PvP. Vladd still seems willing to add functions that overtunes souls in PvP whereas Kervik seems like he couldn't care less if Mages and Clerics are viable in PvP.

    These Pyro changes have a HUGE probability of wrecking their PvP capabilities if concurrent changes aren't made in melee range mitigating skills.

    Mobility IS viability for range souls right now. I am glad Inquisitor isn't the guinea pig here.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DriftinARift View Post
    Agree with most of what you had to say, But there is already a pvp based MMO in the works atm. Wait and see. Companies are not stupid, they see the trend of Esports in North America, best understand one is on the way, Blizzard has had Titan under raps since 2006, Hinted PVP Esport MMO upon us. MMO pvp is taboo, and something that can make a company wealthy beyond means in today's mainstream Esport market.
    all a company would have to do is make an mmo with both options. Casual style and competitive. Large scale and small scale. then not make the rewards that different, IE only give vanity to the competitive side and a detailed leaderboard.

    i always go back to halo 3, even though it was an FPS it was the perfect style for casual and harecore with options for both. On top of an awesome ranking system.

    the key is not making factions and not making classes. balance one character with options to play any style and just have differerent races for cosmetics. keep pvp guild vs guild or if you do faction vs faction provide massive incentives for playing on the side with less players.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by DriftinARift View Post
    Most will agree FPS games back in the day were silly balance wise, did not take a great amount of skill, other than certain aim algorithms.

    MMO competitive games in today's market take a tad bit more skill than silly FPS games. RTS games and Mobas are honestly the only real difficult mechanical and intelligent based Esports left. Reason why Koreans own Starcraft 2 RTS and LOL/Dota2 markets, North Americans simply are lazy and terrible and rather play MMOs and FPS games.

    A well designed MMO will take far more skill than your FPS model. If the developer focuses on balance, MMOs will provide far more mechanics and skills to learn and use properly. FPS games are pretty straight forward and only need to learn and be aware of easy mechanics.
    agree with u, especially the part where u mentioned Americans simply are lazy and terrible. And also if 3.0 pvp are going into "burst" mode style, there is not point playing it.

  10. #25
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    I honestly didnt think pvp could get any worse for mage. Trion has a funny way of proving us wrong.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Landstalker View Post
    I honestly didnt think pvp could get any worse for mage. Trion has a funny way of proving us wrong.
    Any kind of ranged glass cannon can't really operate in an environment when melee can't be kited. There is only one spec that can be called a ranged glass cannon anyway, the rest of them are just glass ornaments; this is another problem...

  12. #27
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    If we lose a bunch of melee dps disconnect utility in the process prepare to either see a massive raidcontent revamp or drastical melee dps buffs, remember this game plays everything.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tookmyjob View Post
    There were changes made to several souls between Vanilla Rift and now that have made PvP much less enjoyable. For the most part, these involve changes to melee souls and reducing the effectiveness of CC.

    - Nearly all melee souls can do a significant percentage of their damage from range. Why do most melee souls have superior damage to ranged souls when, in some instances, they don't need to be in melee range to do high damage?
    Melee has become very simple in comparison to the way it was in Vanilla Rift as Warriors had only 2-3 ranged attacks with cooldowns and needed to be in melee while Rogues weren't able to attack with Swift Shot and proc high damage poisons. Melee souls also could not use cooldowns to grant 100% damage from range ie Para/Harb (not that harb was around back then).

    - Many souls have numerous CC breaks (Pyro looks like it will be able to have four in 2.8). The effectiveness of CC has been greatly reduced with Break Free having its cooldown significantly lowered, souls receiving extra CC breaks and the War PA tree further reducing the duration of CC.
    The result of these changes is that Rift PvP now revolves around burst damage and burst heals with CC playing a much smaller role than it should. IMO this isn't as fun as it could be.

    - Gap closers are now far too numerous. With the exception of Shaman and Blade Dancer to an extent, melee souls can not be kited by most ranged souls. Between pulls, CC breaking charges, multiple charges in single souls, movement speed boosts in melee souls, CC breaks and high damage from range, the range vs melee dynamics don't operate the way that they should.

    Most of these issues relate to the way I feel the game should work, but PvP seems to have turned into something more closely resembling the way an FPS operates; by this I mean highly mobile, fast-paced, burst orientated game-play with little strategy/skill required.
    you have quite the rose colored glasses on, sure you didnt have spammable ranged attack but i remember infinite target blinks on my RB warrior, rb warrior that could play with 1h/shield and still global people. Champ AoE attacks that stunned with OGCD attacks that could global you, para/champ with infinite sprint/charges and ranged attacks that would 3 shot you. lolragestorm build,
    Last edited by SprawlnBrawl; 07-03-2014 at 04:08 PM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SprawlnBrawl View Post
    you have quite the rose colored glasses on, sure you didnt have spammable ranged attack but i remember infinite target blinks on my RB warrior. Champ AoE attacks that stunned with OGCD attacks that could global you, para/champ with infinite sprint/charges and ranged attacks that would 3 shot you
    Yeah, RB/Champ had a stupid amount of blinks but it could still be kited if it wasn't able to refresh them.
    There were some balance issues, but did you find PvP to be more enjoyable back then?

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoMo1 View Post
    What is the point of allegedly scaling back on say Mage if you take the fun out of playing. Pyro will be an immobile clunky soul useless in PVP and vulnerable to anyone. If it's proposed iteration makes it to live you will see no one playing Mage in PVP.

    People need fun if they are continue to play. If you complicate the playability /rotations surviveability you will kill off the calling. Of course a lot of folks calling for changes use programable keyboards and want unwarranted complication because it's boring.

    Be careful what you wish for. What you get could be really awful and drive away folk from the game. Changes in mobility is a killer. Folks may not be able to raid in those places that call for movement. Your calling will be overlooked for those who can move and there are plenty out there.
    this is equally funny because that's how pyro was before and when they changed it people complained how they were turning it into a derpy marksman with all insta casts, now people are complaining about the opposite.
    Last edited by SprawlnBrawl; 07-03-2014 at 04:14 PM.

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