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Thread: I want Trion to invest in PvP content

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    Champion Flair's Avatar
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    Default I want Trion to invest in PvP content

    What can we do to makes this happen?
    If you have to ask...you don't need to know.

  2. #2
    Champion of Telara Aveleys's Avatar
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    The thread title should read: I want Trion to INVENT pvp content.

    yw.

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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Well first what do you mean by PvP content? Another cookie cutter WF? More PvP daily quests in an open world with little to no open world PvP beyond the ocassional bored ganker? Objective based world PvP that has already failed twice (ancient ward stones and PvP Rifts)? More CQ which people seem to universally hate and we know CQ points are going away any who. Official non-dimension arena style PvP....with all the balancing seesaws that never balance anything and just result in a rotating list of "optimal" 5v5 groups?

    To justify developing more PvP content they would first have to Mame major changes to PvP in general, likely even including a legitimately separate PvP ruleset, otherwise they would spend development resources only to see the same complaints we have seen since 2010 betas.

    Hell even if they did this the complaints would like continue because the posts vision of PvP is not addressed to their satisfaction. PvE is pretty simple. Create mobs, AIs and scripts of varying complication and difficulty...go to town. PvP is A LOT more broad. To some people...

    -- the only "real" PvP is death match, objectives are for PvE.
    --For others PvP without objectives is pointless.
    --Complaints about size....too big and too small
    --Competitive ladders or no.
    --Gear and rank based progression or just about skill?
    --too much or too little risk (think Runescape PvP in the Wilderness or EVE vs the joke of risk here in Rift.)

    I could keep on going but the point is before they decide to developed more the devs need to have a clear vision of what their PvP is going to be. Then they need to be transparent about ithe direction before they begin development. Daglar said 3.0 is bring a lot of PvP changes so I would not expect anything new until then and even then I expect a LOT of complaints.
    Last edited by Galibier; 06-28-2014 at 12:29 AM.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    Prophet of Telara Morwath's Avatar
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    WTB 8v8 GvG.

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    Champion R3db4ss's Avatar
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    dont know what 3.0 brings but for now i only see 2 ways for some good pvp coming back.

    1.) dumb down the soulsystem,
    most (new) players have no clue what they do, get owned, cry that xy is op and blame the gear diff.

    2.) bring in bigger rewards into pvp, particularly for the 5vs5 Wf and openpvp.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    This game is not and never will be balanced for 1 vs 1.
    ~Daglar

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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    How does more rewards work without more risk? Half the reason my primary PvP friends got bored with Rift PvP and bailed is that PvP is simply a zerg fest. Even the skilled PvP essentially zerg. Charge...kill...die...respawn...Charge...kill...di e...respawn over and over again. There is no concern to dying because you have nothing to lose. Wade into a scrum to get one kill even if you know you will die in the end? Who cares as it costs you nothing. All making increased rewards will do is enhance the impression that many people have, that getting a head in PvP is not about skill and team work, its just about persistence.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    Champion R3db4ss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    How does more rewards work without more risk?
    it wont at least not in the long run and for openpvp, never said one needs to rule out the other

    For 5vs5 it would be a pretty easy first step, make a leaderbord, give out some nice Fluff stuff for the winners each reset and/or make "Season" that last a month or so...

    Nr1 reason i saw/read the most in the beginning, and also my nr1 reason why i stoped even care about 5vs5, there is nothing to get there. And for that most ppl dont care to get a group going and try their luck aka it gets less and less teams trying.
    Last edited by R3db4ss; 06-28-2014 at 01:46 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    This game is not and never will be balanced for 1 vs 1.
    ~Daglar

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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R3db4ss View Post
    it wont at least not in the long run and for openpvp, never said one needs to rule out the other

    For 5vs5 it would be a pretty easy first step, make a leaderbord, give out some nice Fluff stuff for the winners each reset and/or make "Season" that last a month or so...

    Nr1 reason i saw/read the most in the beginning, and also my nr1 reason why i stoped even care about 5vs5, there is nothing to get there. And for that most ppl dont care to get a group going and try their luck aka it gets less and less teams trying.
    Okay cool. I guess I am just still full of angst over the no risk but decent reward set up that I whole heartedly believe is the prime driver for sub par PvP in Rift...so when I see reward mentioned in isolation I immediately think....."great make matters worse why don't cha."

    PS on your first point....if they dumbed down the soul system any more they might as well get rid of it. If someone has a high speed connection play this game but can't type forums.riftgame.com, click on PvP forums...then PvP guides... sorry it just makes my teeth ache.
    Last edited by Galibier; 06-28-2014 at 02:26 AM.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    Okay cool. I guess I am just still full of angst over the no risk but decent reward set up that I whole heartedly believe is the prime driver for sub par PvP in Rift...so when I see reward mentioned in isolation I immediately think....."great make matters worse why don't cha."

    PS on your first point....if they dumbed down the soul system any more they might as well get rid of it. If someone has a high speed connection play this game but can't type forums.riftgame.com, click on PvP forums...then PvP guides... sorry it just makes my teeth ache.
    If you gonna add risks to doing pvp, the only result you will get is people dodging pvp and people trying to get the bigger zerg over the other zerg, so they win 100%.

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    Prophet of Telara Morwath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    Okay cool. I guess I am just still full of angst over the no risk but decent reward set up that I whole heartedly believe is the prime driver for sub par PvP in Rift...so when I see reward mentioned in isolation I immediately think....."great make matters worse why don't cha."
    ...but cmon, PvE raids are no risk : high reward, should we apply high penality (lasting week!) if they fail?

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    Champion R3db4ss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Temo View Post
    If you gonna add risks to doing pvp, the only result you will get is people dodging pvp and people trying to get the bigger zerg over the other zerg, so they win 100%.
    Not that wrong but the whole Risk thing has a point...

    You cant just stack up rewards without adding some more "risk" to (open) pvp...

    It dont need to be something like losing exp., just something easy like losing progress on your daily pvp quest (like "collect 10XY, everytime you get killed you lose 1 of your allready collected qitems").

    Or in short if you get way bigger rewards you should feel that you get killed and not just respawn turn pvp off/change Server and go your way like nothing happend...

    Btw. whats so bad about "Zerg" openpvp in an MMO ? beside the engine problems, i deff enjoyed some of the bigger fights i had in the past more then 1vs1 crap i get no from time to time...(and no im not talking cq )




    Quote Originally Posted by Morwath View Post
    ...but cmon, PvE raids are no risk : high reward, should we apply high penality (lasting week!) if they fail?
    A raid who isnt killing anything/or is progressing has an pretty high "risk" allready imo...time is money
    Last edited by R3db4ss; 06-28-2014 at 03:31 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    This game is not and never will be balanced for 1 vs 1.
    ~Daglar

  12. #12
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morwath View Post
    ...but cmon, PvE raids are no risk : high reward, should we apply high penality (lasting week!) if they fail?
    Three things.

    First PvE only rewards success. If a mob does not die, no exp, no loot, no marks. Queue for a dungeon and can't complete it? No marks. Lose a WF or CQ you still get rewarded with currency and exp. If you did not kill a damn thing and just ran around favor and exp. As such it is not simply a matter of lack of risk in PvP but rewarding failure (even if the reward is smaller.) I would see your point if PvP was a matter of "no win no reward but it is not."

    That said... I come from games where if you died enough you lost levels or your gear got broken etc. So I would not have an issue with this in PvE.

    Third point. The idea of risk in PvP is not just a matter of being commensurate with rewards BUT as a control mechanic. If people have a chance of being corpse looted the wander in groups while leveling...making force on force world PvP more likely. It moderates ganking as that solo assassin will either stay stealthed as the group rolls buy or he risks losing his stuff. Heck if you think you have a good Guild that can take others it encourages GvG PvP or alliance v alliance without needing things like "tournament 3000 plat first prize" to encourage participation. The reward comes from your fallen opponents corpse.

    Having risk in PvP simply makes for better PvP without needing complicated ruleset or silly incentives like CQ has. The dynamics between the two are VERY different.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

  13. #13
    Ascendant Flashmemory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    Three things.

    First PvE only rewards success. If a mob does not die, no exp, no loot, no marks. Queue for a dungeon and can't complete it? No marks. Lose a WF or CQ you still get rewarded with currency and exp. If you did not kill a damn thing and just ran around favor and exp. As such it is not simply a matter of lack of risk in PvP but rewarding failure (even if the reward is smaller.) I would see your point if PvP was a matter of "no win no reward but it is not."

    That said... I come from games where if you died enough you lost levels or your gear got broken etc. So I would not have an issue with this in PvE.

    Third point. The idea of risk in PvP is not just a matter of being commensurate with rewards BUT as a control mechanic. If people have a chance of being corpse looted the wander in groups while leveling...making force on force world PvP more likely. It moderates ganking as that solo assassin will either stay stealthed as the group rolls buy or he risks losing his stuff. Heck if you think you have a good Guild that can take others it encourages GvG PvP or alliance v alliance without needing things like "tournament 3000 plat first prize" to encourage participation. The reward comes from your fallen opponents corpse.

    Having risk in PvP simply makes for better PvP without needing complicated ruleset or silly incentives like CQ has. The dynamics between the two are VERY different.
    Risk vs. Reward wouldn't work in a game like this since there is no point in history I can remember where classes were balanced. Also, a game where people abuse healing and attrition based specs make risk vs. reward even worse since all you will have is bunch of healers and half tanks, full tanks running around not trying to die. Believe it or not Trion PvP depends on bottom feeders and scrubs who play one role to succeed and if those players just avoided pvp entirely it would make pvp more boring and pointless. Let alone there is already outlets for death matches and rewards through player hosted tourney with pvp dimensions.. Some players consider time wasted a risk vs. reward as well...
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 06-28-2014 at 04:19 AM.

  14. #14
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Balance is only so relevant. In MMO PvP there has always been optimal classes and sub optimal classes for PvP and these optimal classes often swing back and forth, just like in Rift. If what you said was fact there NEVER would have been risk vs reward based PvP. MMO PvP has always been that AND rock>paper>scissors. This is not an FPS.

    As far as the rest you have two choices imo. Accept the fact that Rift PvP will always be sub par and that the truly active population of decent/good players will be few and far between and arguably fewer as time goes on...OR you can make a big change which will cause a lot of short term angst and make PvP in the game attractive again.

    Yes you would have to make mechanical changes. You could change PvP mechanics so that the half tank builds take serious hits to healing. In regards to healing itself I know some people think PvP should be "wham bam thank you ma'am" dead but I think healers should make a CLEAR difference and that you should have to at least focus them, if not actually gang up on them first in order to have a prayer of success so I do not see your healer comment as an issue. It's how it should be now.

    If you do this then your options are heals, support, dps or near full tank. If you do not balance the groups properly then you are screwed. And no I do not think PvP should be balanced around 20 special snow flakes that think they are Cartman and play while saying"screw you I do what I want." This is an MMO, as such in PvP just as in PvE it should be about having the right balance of roles.
    Last edited by Galibier; 06-28-2014 at 04:40 AM.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

  15. #15
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    Why would they invest in pvp when they can sell alpha keys for 150€ for Archeage which is 70% pvp game. Rift is already dead. They will try to revive it with 3.0 expansion defibrilator but seeing that 4 legged shark mounts makes me wonder....
    Last edited by jebeninick; 06-28-2014 at 04:44 AM.

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