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Thread: Looking for an alternative view: how is RIFTs PVP gear progression NOT Pay to Win?

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    RIFT Fan Site Operator Seatin's Avatar
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    Default Looking for an alternative view: how is RIFTs PVP gear progression NOT Pay to Win?

    Hey ladies and gents.

    I've just come here looking for a fairly justifiable and sensible answer as to why RIFTs PVP gear progression is NOT pay to win! As soon as I typed out justifiable and sensible and realised I was posting on the PVP forums I realised this was already a bad idea, anyways onward!

    My definition of pay to win: Laying down your cash to buy the best or most powerful items in the game. Obviously money won't buy you skill or ensure victory - We all know this so let's leave all the counter arguments centering around skill out

    I'm a pretty casual PVPer, I wish I was as hardcore as you lot, I really do. So anyways today I sat down for a bit and thought about PVP gear progression and I know a lot of this stuff has been in the game for a month or two now. I always like to be the optimist and assume the best, but after sitting down for like 30 minutes and looking at RIFTs PVP gear progression system, I'm struggling to properly justify how it isn't pay to win as from my stand point you can reliably buy all the gear from credits, granted it is a fair amount of credits, the option still exists for someone to drop large amounts of money on the game and have a fairly decent advantage over everyone else.

    Disclaimer: I may be super stupid or missing out on something vital here, if I am, I encourage you to correct me, but first just have a skim over the rest of the post.

    Before we list all the stuff you can currently buy let's also take this lovely quote and free to play philosophy into mind from the RIFT Free to Play announcement video:

    "Part of the philosophy is to ensure that the best items in game are earned in game, we do offer a lot of items on the store, but the very best stuff you have to go out and earn that"
    ~Bill Fisher (Daglar)

    With cash you can currently buy:
    • Myrmidons Marks in sizeable stacks (400-600) (Via Lockboxes)
    • Warlords Upgrade Cells (Used for Myrmidons Relic Gear)
    • BIS essences + enchants are in troves that can be purchased with credits
    • BIS consumables +15% speed insoles via troves
    • Insta Mount consumables (These are godly for warfronts where you can mount/open world/conquest)
    • You can gain Depleted Infinity Shards via the troves that can be purchased with credits which technically means you can reliably buy Depleted Infinity Cells PVP Relic gear (Used for Myrmidons Relic Gear)
    • Marks of Conquest in large stacks (Used for BIS Sigil and Seal)(Via lockboxes)
    • 160% Prestige Vials + 40% Patron Prestige Vials allow you to get to Rank 90 very quickly

    So theoretically somebody that has a lot of money would be able to get the all the relic pieces and full BIS gear pretty damn quickly and easily. Provided you have the rank, you can lay down cash and get the BEST gear; something that I assumed was still against rifts core free to play philosophy.

    Arguments against RIFTs PVP gear progression being P2W:
    "You have to rank up, which means you have to play" - Ranking up is very quick and easy when you have 200% increased Prestige

    "You can still earn all these items via in game activities, you're essentially just listing boosts" - How long is it going to take you to grind 150,000-300,000+ Warlord Marks and 14 Radiant Infinity Cells? - My rough calculations show to reliably grind this it would take something along the lines of 9-15 months providing you completed all the dailies and weeklies, each week, for 9 months-15 months.

    Having an artificial currency cap in the form of dailies, weeklies and charges on stuff like marks and fragments means that currently people who are dropping money on the game are getting a pretty decent advantage in terms of PVP gear.

    To me RIFT PVP gear progression comes across as something like this: "Here's all this amazing BIS gear that you won't be able to obtain in a time frame where it's relevant unless you drop down big stacks of cash"

    I'll be honest tho, in RIFTs end of Storm Legion current state, I couldn't care less about it being Pay to Win, I'm all aboard that 3.0 hype train and I would really hate to see this being carried over into 3.0.

    My wishlist for 3.0 gear PVP progression:
    • NO BIS Currency available from Troves
    • The removal of Troves gambling for runes from PVP progression or at least make these runes BOE so you can trade/sell them
    • The ability to not lay down phat stacks of cash and be able to purchase BIS relic PVP gear
    • No BIS essences from Troves that can be purchased with credits

    The PVP gear progression at the start of RIFTs F2P was awesome, fair and ensured that the only way to get the BIS gear was to actually play the game. The system now encourages and allows you to lay down money if you want the BIS gear in time for it to be relevant.

    Am I missing out on an angle or viewpoint how this is not pay to win? PVP progression has gotten so unnecessarily complex that it's difficult to wrap my head around its entirety. I would really appreciate if a few of you could put forth some arguments as to why RIFTs PVP progression is NOT pay to win!

    Thanks!

    ~Seatin

    P.S Remove Conquest Power already, I thought we had a pretty unanimous vote in that thread a few months back!
    Last edited by Seatin; 05-27-2014 at 06:23 AM.
    #1 Hardcore Casual - Seatin - RIFT Livestreamer/YouTuber. Check out: www.twitch.tv/seatinmanoflegends and www.youtube.com/seatinmanoflegends

  2. #2
    Ascendant Violacea's Avatar
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    Money spent directly can increase toon power, provide them BiS items including runes, and can speed up progression a lot.

    I am not sure there is more legitimate counter argument. That isn't an opinion what I just wrote, it is a pragmatic reality of Rift. You can call that whatever you want, but the method is the method. Just not sure someone can argue different unless they write off exactly what I wrote, and call it something else. No matter what you call it, nothing will change that money improves Rift QoL and increases progression potential. Period.
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  3. #3
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Seatin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violacea View Post
    Money spent directly can increase toon power, provide them BiS items including runes, and can speed up progression a lot.

    I am not sure there is more legitimate counter argument. That isn't an opinion what I just wrote, it is a pragmatic reality of Rift. You can call that whatever you want, but the method is the method. Just not sure someone can argue different unless they write off exactly what I wrote, and call it something else. No matter what you call it, nothing will change that money improves Rift QoL and increases progression potential. Period.
    Brilliant reply and simple reply, thanks for that Violacea.

    I guess it all depends on someones definition of Pay to Win. My personal definition of 'Win' is to have the BIS equipment and taking in the reality that you can get it via cash and not in a reasonable time frame, I suppose that only further adds to the argument that RIFTs PVP can easily be defined as pay to win, which sucks.

    I guess you can't buy PVP skill. *shrug*
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    Ascendant Violacea's Avatar
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    Exactly, beyond this it will become a game of semantics with words and the vague terms of "win" (in this context) will get dissected to death.

    I just know for my birthday, I gave in and told a relative it would be legit this year if they just threw me some credits for my game. So they gave me a $50 worth of credits and I boxed it up. I upgraded my toon with 3 pieces (which are now probably going to be BiS for me until 2015 as they are relic now) and 2 BiS runes. My power increased more than it ever has in that short window of time when I used money instead of game action. Money directly increased my toons power within minutes. And money gave me a shot at progression that would have taken about 2 weeks to catch up to.
    Last edited by Violacea; 05-27-2014 at 06:21 AM.
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    RIFT Fan Site Operator Seatin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violacea View Post
    Exactly, beyond this it will become a game of semantics with words and the vague terms of "win" (in this context) will get dissected to death.
    I've added clarity on the definition of pay to win right up top in context to the original post, hopefully that'll clear it up and keep the discussion more focused. The discussion that right now you can buy all the best in slot PVP gear.
    #1 Hardcore Casual - Seatin - RIFT Livestreamer/YouTuber. Check out: www.twitch.tv/seatinmanoflegends and www.youtube.com/seatinmanoflegends

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    Ascendant Gunzip's Avatar
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    If folks want to pay their way to gear faster, by all means, it doesn't impact my personal enjoyment one bit. I refuse to buy pvp gear upgrades with cash, I take my time to achieve the higher pvp gear via in game currency such as favor and conquest points.
    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    I believe Assassin DoTs are uncleansable.

    It's still a terrible PvP spec compared to Marksman, though.

  7. #7
    Sword of Telara SWGMOD010's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunzip View Post
    If folks want to pay their way to gear faster, by all means, it doesn't impact my personal enjoyment one bit. I refuse to buy pvp gear upgrades with cash, I take my time to achieve the higher pvp gear via in game currency such as favor and conquest points.
    It's kind-of undermining considering I put a ridiculous amount of time into grinding this stuff, just to have some guy buy it.

    Also, Stormzill
    STORMSTORMSTORMSTORMSTORMSTORMSTORMSTORMSTORM

  8. #8
    Rift Chaser Maul STK's Avatar
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    You are right... as you said it can't be denied that in Rift you can spend money and get BIS pvp stuff.

    Though the only part of this that bothers me it's the fact that they didn't keep their promise.

    In practice pvp BIS gear doesn't differ that much from an average setup (let's say warlord) that is really fast and easy to get.

    That is the only reason i wouldn't call pay-to-win on pvp gear progression.... in Rift BIS gear doesn't make you a winner at all (i admit it, my arguments sound a little stretched even to me).
    Last edited by Maul STK; 05-27-2014 at 06:52 AM.
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  9. #9
    Plane Touched
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    I've never liked the gear system. Ever since day 1.

    I hate the concept of BiS as it doesn't allow for a player to customize themself. I think the main customization I can get now is do I want to focus on crit power or just crit and that's it.

    I would have liked it if Trion allowed players to really customize their gear based upon their playstyle. Of course BiS is the easiest way to do gear and that's why most MMO's do it this way. To me it's just boring.

  10. #10
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Riane's Avatar
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    So theoretically somebody that has a lot of money would be able to get the all the relic pieces and full BIS gear pretty damn quickly and easily. Provided you have the rank, you can lay down cash and get the BEST gear; something that I assumed was still against rifts core free to play philosophy.
    That was already easy to do. Buy RICs from PDKPs.

  11. #11
    Ascendant Meteorblade's Avatar
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    If you have enough cash to throw around you can buy lots of Depleted Supply Crates which will have small quantities of Depleted Infinity Shards in which, of course, will lead you to getting Depleted Infinity Cells to upgrade your Myrmidon armour into relics, i.e. to make them BiS PvP items. Not to mention that these crates are the only way currently to obtain the BiS PvP runes, PvP greaters and armour pieces that have Crit Power on them, which basically confirms what you suspected, it can be Pay To Win.

    Of course, PvP isn't the only thing affected. If you throw enough cash at the Sparkle Troves it's theoretically possible to get enough Fragments of the Ward to start buying Raid Tier 3 armour, i.e. throw enough money about and you get end-game raid gear.

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    RIFT Fan Site Operator Drakkashi's Avatar
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    I might throw in the towel and leave Rift for good because of this exactly.

    I had to focus on my education for a while, and thus took some time off from Rift, this were after it had been free-to-play for a few months mind you. I actually thought Rift had one of the most successful free-to-play models for an MMO at the time.

    But what I've returned to is worthy of a horror story. I can no longer recommend this game, and it pains me..

    People can justify the ability to buy powerful end-game gear how they want. All I know is, I'm not too keen about the idea of staying around to have my time and efforts undermined by it.

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  13. #13
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Riane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meteorblade View Post
    Of course, PvP isn't the only thing affected. If you throw enough cash at the Sparkle Troves it's theoretically possible to get enough Fragments of the Ward to start buying Raid Tier 3 armour, i.e. throw enough money about and you get end-game raid gear.
    I don't think you realize how much you'd need to spend to even come close to buying 1 piece. 6500 marks is the least you'd need. You get what, 20ish (various loyalty boosts) in a trove?

    325 boxes @ 630c (patron discount) = 204750c.

    12 $100 credit packs. So you think someone will spend roughly $1200 on boxes knowing you DO NOT get guaranteed FOTW from each box? No. Remember, it's not a guaranteed currency so 325 boxes is what you'd need to give you enough marks for 1 piece. So you know you're spending way more than that now.

    tl;dr T3 marks are not an issue.
    Last edited by Riane; 05-27-2014 at 09:10 AM.

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    Ascendant Violacea's Avatar
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    Basically if some rapper ever decided to play Rift they would probably catch up to all of us in progression in like 9 days.
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  15. #15
    General of Telara littlepoit's Avatar
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    god i hate p2p and rng p2w.....
    mmos used to be the entertainment of the 99%,something anybody could afford and play endlessly and equally for a very small fee.... greatest ROI, best bang for your buck. f2p is just an illusion and will end up costing you more in time or money to reach the same level of achievement/accomplishment (aka winning).

    i would include a poster of El CHE and call for a revolution but this is a lost cause. ultimately the industry delivers what the consumers want and apparently they want to have access to every game for free even if it's a washed out version of it, welcome to the fast food era.

    next step in mmos is the GP2P : getpaid2play. mmos will pay you to be in game and get stomped by p2w players so they can find some use for their BIS overpriced gear.

    yes rift is p2w, yet it hasn't reached its true potential yet.


    .......and on that note i'm going to play hearthstone
    Last edited by littlepoit; 05-27-2014 at 09:55 AM.

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